Down VS Synthetic for Alpine Climbing

To preface this, I have extensive experience with two bags: TNF One Bag (great idea, poor execution) and MH Lamina 15 degree.

I live in Alaska but am in WA until next summer to climb. I am in need of a new mountaineering/alpine climbing bag as I am tired of suffering through sleepless nights in the One Bag in the alpine. After reading Extreme Alpinism and a lot of Uphill athlete forums, I am still torn between a synthetic bag and a down bag for 1-2 night objectives in the PNW. An ability to use it for backpacking in Alaska and mountains around the 48. 

I'm wondering about peoples experiences with a high end down, or synthetic bag for winter mixed and shoulder season climbing in the Cascades. Twight and House both seem to favor a synthetic bag for anything more than 1 night, and for alpine bivies. Can't find any more information than that on performance synthetic bags, seems more the realm of car campers and mild weather backpackers as far as forums and reviews go. Down bags however seem to be used widely. The Lamina 15 treated me well for a month in the Winds a couple years ago, but takes up a lot of space in an alpine pack in trade for durability and condensation/snow resistance. What are your thoughts on going one way or another? For reference, I am 6 foot 6 and tend to be a cold sleeper.

Noah DeBruin wrote:

Twight and House both seem to favor a synthetic bag for anything more than 1 night, and for alpine bivies. 

Not much else to be said on the matter IMO.

Doesn't mean you shouldn't buy down. Maybe all your trips will be 1 night (certainly many of the popular Cascades objectives are). Maybe you're going to have more of a base camp situation where you can better maintain down. Maybe you'll only climb with a stellar forecast and relaxed itineraries where you can lay your bag in the sun for a couple of hours a day. But like Steve says, you can pack up wet down once.

jdejace wrote:

Not much else to be said on the matter IMO.

I don't think the word of two climbers should be the end of the conversation, especially when the two climbers mentioned haven't done any significant routes in over a decade.

Tom Livingstone used a down bag on Latok: https://www.mountain-equipment.co.uk/blogs/our-team/tom-livingstone-s-latok-i-expedition-kit-list

Tom Ripley (and Livingstone) used down bags on the Cassin: http://tomripleyclimbing.blogspot.com/2013/05/the-gear-for-cassin.html

The Wrights used a down bag on their recent FA of K7 central & west: https://rockandice.com/climbing-news/jeff-and-priti-wright-virtual-unknowns-make-first-ascent-of-k6-central-third-ascent-of-k6-west-in-pakistan/

I am not saying that a down bag is the right choice for everyone, or that there isn't merit to synthetics; I'm just saying that we should not stop at "do this because Twight and House said so," and consider that there are other folks with valuable knowledge and experience out there doing it differently, and we should consider their experience as well.

While I have FAR less experience than any of the aforementioned people, I live and climb in the PNW and use down bags exclusively, and have had no issues doing so.  Many of my partners use down bags in this area as well.  The PNW doesn't have a ton of climbs that require a bivy, but I have used down on Rainier, Adams, Baker, Stuart, Dragontail, and in Peru.

i have both, but always pull out my down bag for big alpine adventures. warmer, lighter and packs down smaller, but you are going to pay a price (i think my big agnes UL 0 was $500). for reference, i have used this bag on Aconcagua and Rainier (lib ridge). never had any issues with it getting wet.

Kyle Tarry wrote:

While I have FAR less experience than any of the aforementioned people, I live and climb in the PNW and use down bags exclusively, and have had no issues doing so.  Many of my partners use down bags in this area as well.

That's what I've heard, down is pretty common here for shorter trips. I suppose worst comes to worst one could invest in a synthetic bag if the need arises. One of the big concerns is bivies here. The links you mentioned are all relatively cold, dry peaks where bivouacs have less potential to get moist than here in the Cascades.

Noah DeBruin wrote:

One of the big concerns is bivies here. The links you mentioned are all relatively cold, dry peaks where bivouacs have less potential to get moist than here in the Cascades.

Remember that the generalization of "the Cascades are wet" is not really accurate, given the seasonality of our precipitation.  In the summer, when most people will be out mountaineering, the weather is quite dry.  We also have very good weather forecasting, so the odds of being surprised by significant precip are low.

In the end, I think that it is a personal decision, and I can only relay my experience of using down exclusively and never having a dangerously wet bag situation.

Kyle Tarry wrote:

Remember that the generalization of "the Cascades are wet" is not really accurate, given the seasonality of our precipitation.  In the summer, when most people will be out mountaineering, the weather is quite dry.  We also have very good weather forecasting, so the odds of being surprised by significant precip are low.

In the end, I think that it is a personal decision, and I can only relay my experience of using down exclusively and never having a dangerously wet bag situation.

I'll definitely look further into it. Started out on the synthetic side from prior experience but everything seems to lean towards down. What bags have you had experience with?

Kyle Tarry wrote:

I don't think the word of two climbers should be the end of the conversation, especially when the two climbers mentioned haven't done any significant routes in over a decade.

Tom Livingstone used a down bag on Latok: https://www.mountain-equipment.co.uk/blogs/our-team/tom-livingstone-s-latok-i-expedition-kit-list

Tom Ripley (and Livingstone) used down bags on the Cassin: http://tomripleyclimbing.blogspot.com/2013/05/the-gear-for-cassin.html

The Wrights used a down bag on their recent FA of K7 central & west: https://rockandice.com/climbing-news/jeff-and-priti-wright-virtual-unknowns-make-first-ascent-of-k6-central-third-ascent-of-k6-west-in-pakistan/

I am not saying that a down bag is the right choice for everyone, or that there isn't merit to synthetics; I'm just saying that we should not stop at "do this because Twight and House said so," and consider that there are other folks with valuable knowledge and experience out there doing it differently, and we should consider their experience as well.

While I have FAR less experience than any of the aforementioned people, I live and climb in the PNW and use down bags exclusively, and have had no issues doing so.  Many of my partners use down bags in this area as well.

I think "XY made it up Z with a down bag" is a different discussion. Down gets wet. Inflatable pads pop. If you cross the street with your eyes closed, you'll make it more often than not. All that stuff will work most of the time.

For amateurs climbing established routes I think being conservative makes sense most of the time. If you really want to use your down bag and small pack it's up to you to confront the question of "from my planned bivy site(s) could I realistically get moving and get back down to safety in the middle of the night if I were getting hypothermic." A lot of times the answer might be yes and that's fine if you want to take the chance. The mountains are all about taking chances. But I don't think down bags on multi day trips is the best general advice.

jdejace wrote:

I think "XY made it up Z with a down bag" is a different discussion.

I was simply providing some counter-evidence to the claim that "Twight and House use synthetics, so that's the end of the discussion."  We can't say that their experience is important, but other people's isn't.  There are lots of equally experienced people climbing with down bags. That doesn't mean down is better, but it's a very strong sign that the word of those two climber doesn't give you the full picture.  I would simply encourage folks to look for a more broad base of opinions.

But I don't think down bags on multi day trips is the best general advice.

That's a  personal risk assessment, and I respect that.  Just make sure you acknowledge that many experienced PNW climbers (the majority of my partners) carry down bags, and have significant experiences with these bags that indicate that they work fine.  It's also extremely rare for a Cascades climb to occur over multiple nights, so that can be a big factor in bag choice for some people (I spent 5 or 6 rainy nights in a down bag at 5,000m moraine camp on Alpamayo and I would bring down next time for that too, but YMMV).

Kyle Tarry wrote:

I was simply providing some counter-evidence to the claim that "Twight and House use synthetics, so that's the end of the discussion."  

I was agreeing with them more than saying their word is gospel. They do offer more subtleties if you read Extreme Alpinism or watch that House video I linked. Down can be a sensible choice, but I think synthetic for >1 night remains excellent general advice. 

We can't say that their experience is important, but other people's isn't.  There are lots of equally experienced people climbing in the same ranges where those two made their most significant ascents, and they are choosing to do it with down bags. That doesn't mean down is better, but it's a very strong sign that the word of those two climber doesn't give you the full picture.  I would simply encourage folks to look for a more broad base of opinions.

Is it really opinion if we all agree that down gets wet sometimes? When anyone packs up a humid down bag it loses significant loft regardless of their opinion or experience. It's more analyzing logistics and contingencies: is the bag getting packed up in the dark hours of the morning? Are there long hours of sunlight and will there be time to lay it out? How conservatively did you choose your bag and how much loft can you stand to lose? Can you get back down if you have to (retreating across a glacier with limited visibility would be suboptimal)?

That's a  personal risk assessment, and I respect that.  Just make sure you acknowledge that many experienced PNW climbers (the majority of my partners) carry down bags, and have significant experiences with these bags that indicate that they work fine.

Again, to me that is not a valid pro-down argument. Plenty of people use inflatable pads too, until they pop one. Your down will get compromised eventually if it hasn't already, and it may or may not (hopefully the latter) leave you in a pickle depending on circumstances. I agree with you that Cascade mountaineering season is relatively dry but I've woken up to plenty of wet down regardless. It wouldn't be very hard to dig up an example of someone with wilted down in the Cascades who found themselves in an unfortunate position. 

  It's also extremely rare for a Cascades climb to occur over multiple nights, so that can be a big factor in bag choice for some people 

Agree here and I mentioned this in my first post. I use down more often than not in the Cascades. It's nice to own both but I consider down a luxury and would choose synthetic if I could only have one. 

Down is better for 95% of mountain situations. The other 5% involve temperatures just above freezing, with liquid precipitation, high winds, and totally unprotected sleep sites, guaranteed, for days. Most people do not set out for really hard multi-day trips in that 5%.  So down is better because:

1)   There are easy ways to prevent the bag from getting wet in the first place:

Bag got wet while inside the pack because the skies were dumping  = use a trash compactor bag

Bag got wet from touching moist ground / snow = use a tyvek groundsheet under your pad

Bag got wet from internal condensation = don't breathe too much inside your bag. Exhale outside the bag. 

Bag got wet from dew overnight = don't camp in open fields or near water. On more vertical terrain this is much less of a problem. It also means it is not super cold. 

Bag got wet from frost overnight = slap the frost off before you pack the bag away. Frost caked on the outside doesn't dampen the bag. 

Bag got wet from rain overnight = pitch your tarp / fly better, or use a bivy sack and don't breathe into it. It helps to make some space between the bivy sack and the bag by propping it up away from your bag by using sticks, cams stem up, water bottles, boots, etc. 

2) If it does get wet, you can dry the bag out with some breeze or sun, even if it's humid. On a multi-day trip the chance that you will get 3-4 days of continuous precipitation without a chance to dry out, and still decide to continue, are pretty low. Synthetic bags do not dry out as easily. 

3) If it gets wet and you can't dry it out, for the weight and space savings a down bag gives you, you can afford to bring an insulating hoody, or thermal tights, or many other layers that also help during the day. Investing extra weight/volume into a heavy and bulky synthetic sleeping bag is the worst allocation of resources.  At night, if it's getting dire, put on all your clothes or arrange them inside as extra insulation layers. For example, instead of wearing your puffy to bed, use it as a blanket on top of you inside the sleeping bag. And if things get really really bad and you are shivering uncontrollably, you're not going to get much sleep, so eat some snacks, do crunches, and rub your hands on your thighs and arms. 

I have spent hundreds of nights in down bags and I have had to do #3 exactly once. 

Don't pack your fears!

Petey Gil-Montllor wrote:

 Synthetic bags do not dry out as easily.

You sure about that?

Petey Gil-Montllor wrote:

Bag got wet from dew overnight = don't camp in open fields or near water. On more vertical terrain this is much less of a problem. It also means it is not super cold. 

Bag got wet from frost overnight = slap the frost off before you pack the bag away. Frost caked on the outside doesn't dampen the bag. 

Bag got wet from rain overnight = pitch your tarp / fly better, or use a bivy sack and don't breathe into it. It helps to make some space between the bivy sack and the bag by propping it up away from your bag by using sticks, cams stem up, water bottles, boots, etc. 

Thanks for the tips Petey, 

These 3 are my main concerns, mostly due to my height. I find no matter what I am pressing on most mountaineering tents in some way by the morning, and usually it is my foot or shoulder that has gotten damp. I suppose for one or two nights not a huge concern, but back in Alaska the approaches get longer, usually through moist terrain.

Wetness inside tents:  I've never been to Alaska but for 1-2 night overnights in the Cascades I'd recommend only putting up the tent if you are pretty sure it's going to rain or snow. I do this even in winter.  If I see all the stars starting to come out at bedtime, and no clouds creating dark spots in the sky, putting up the tent is not worth it and avoids having to pack up a dewy wet tent in the morning. If I get a little drizzle in the middle of the night I'll lazily drag the fly / tarp / tent body over, tuck it under so it doesn't blow away, and go back to sleep. The nice thing about sleeping without a tent is that the wind will counteract the dew and dry your bag even if gets a little wet or was already wet. This also helps you stay dry in the morning because you can put on your top layers and organize your stuff, while still lying in your sleeping bag, without brushing up against the moist walls of a tarp or tent. 

Synthetic bags drying more slowly: Yeah, that's my experience with the heavyweight (5-10 F) synth bags.  Once they are really wet they remain damp because you can't shake the fill around to get the air through the way you can with clumps of wet down. Maybe recent designs are better - it's been five years since I've been on a trip where anyone had a synthetic bag. 

Just an angle that seems to not really have been considered here: You also get moisture in a bag from sweat overnight (how much sweat depends on your physiology and the temperature, but it's never none), and if you're using it to dry gloves/socks/boot liners/whatever overnight. Worth considering.

Noah DeBruin wrote:

What bags have you had experience with?

Sorry Noah, I missed this question yesterday.  I've used a lot of different sleeping bags, including a FF Swallow (20 deg), several ~0 degree Rab bags (currently using a -5 Neutrino), Kelty Cosmic, and an Enlightened Equipment 30 deg quilt.  Any quality down bag will work nicely, I try to shop sales and deals because they can be expensive.  The Kelty Cosmic bags are an entry-level option and are currently on sale, might be worth looking into if you're on a budget.  I also REALLY like my EE quilt, although it probably wouldn't be my choice if I could only have one bag.

With regard to all the panic about moisture, nobody is suggesting that moisture doesn't exist, or that a down bag won't get wet.  Of course it will.  But a down bag is going to be so much warmer for the weight and size than a synthetic bag, especially a synthetic bag that isn't brand new, so a little bit of moisture simply isn't a catastrophe (for most folks in most places).

To the multi-day comment, remember that people use down bags on Denali (for 2-3 weeks at a time), and on many of the classic long trails (AT, PCT, CDT).  Of course, these are not all mountaineering, but just a reminder that it's probably also not as a simple as "more than one day = synthetic."  RMI (the main guide service on Rainier) also recommends down for all of their 3-5 days climbs on that peak.

A bit like Twight and House  my advice would be to go with down for one night (alpine, bivy, whatever) and synthetic for more than one night. 

This is a general advice, if your main priority is weight, down will always win. 

On a personal level I don't own a synthetic bag since the alpine bivy I m doing half a dozen time per year (the hut system is pretty extensive in the alps) are always for one night only.
At the end of most night I would be pretty miserable for another night outside but its enough to get me through one "alpine night" (between 9pm and 2/4 am). 

Kyle Tarry wrote:

I've used a lot of different sleeping bags, including a FF Swallow (20 deg), several ~0 degree Rab bags (currently using a -5 Neutrino), Kelty Cosmic, and an Enlightened Equipment 30 deg quilt.

I've heard good things about FF, I get the AAC discount so I'll look further into their lineup. Sleeping bags, boots, and load bearing gear are the only things I'm willing to spend big on, haha. MH also makes an interesting bag, the Phantom Alpine 15 degree. Can't find much info though.

Just out of curiosity are you guys in the down crowd bringing your damp day clothes into the bag at night to dry them? And if not how are you managing this?

Ryan Mac wrote:

Just out of curiosity are you guys in the down crowd bringing your damp day clothes into the bag at night to dry them? And if not how are you managing this?

I'm definitely bringing in the socks I wore, and maybe my baselayer is a bit damp, but I generally don't have a pile of wet clothing in the middle of a mountaineering trip.

If you want really good moisture management tips, talk to a thru-hiker.  Those folks might get rained on for days on end, and don't have the benefit of short trips, bail options, and weather windows, so they have to be much more careful about dealing with this sort of thing.

Ryan Mac wrote:

Just out of curiosity are you guys in the down crowd bringing your damp day clothes into the bag at night to dry them? And if not how are you managing this?

Try to avoid having sweaty clothes before bed by slowing the pace at night and by delaying putting on new layers as it gets chilly. Once stopped at the sleep site, allow a few minutes for body heat to vent before putting on the hoody / puffy.

Twist all water out of socks and shirt and windmill them in each hand to get some air drying started (or simply hold them out if it's windy enough). In a low humidity alpine environment, laying socks and shirts over a branch or rock feature where they will get some breeze means they will typically be drier in the morning than if kept inside the bag / tent / pack. 

If it's raining or below freezing, yes it helps to put the layers back on and bring socks inside the bag so at least they are warm and damp in the morning instead of cold and damp. I tuck them into my waistband so they don't get lost and don't transfer as much moisture to the bag.

Boy scouts and Outward Bound / NOLS traditionally taught that everyone needs to bring a separate set of dry 'night clothes' to change into, but that comes from a very campy idea of the backcountry involving flannel and seminars by firelight and a cast iron pan and a pot of coffee in the morning.  For modern athletic objectives, there's no such redundancy in clothing because every piece is part of a layering system. (Exceptions: multiple socks and if ice climbing, multiple pairs of gloves to rotate to avoid the barfies). 

Bottom line is that if it's raining or really sweaty the next day, your socks and baselayers will soon be wet again so it doesn't matter whether you dried them overnight. And if it's dry the next day, great, your clothing and bag can be aired out during a rest break or a long belay.