Totems are over priced

If you guys think these are expensive, try a trip to the ER!

Sorta side tracking this, but the only reason I am looking at doubling my rack of totems is for the weird pin scars up to Sickle on the nose. With a single rack of totems, what do people WHO HAVE DONE THE ROUTE A FEW TIMES, think about getting Z4s as the doubles instead of totems to save some money, but still have adequate performance for yarding willy nilly on those scars? More as a leaver piece than primary frenching piece.

Eliot Hack wrote:

Z4s are as functional at totems in all the Z4 sizes and are priced twenty bucks is less. 

Lol. Z4s are ridiculously crap. The only benefit to the Z4 coming out was the discounts on X4s

Spider Savage wrote:

If you can find them in stock, buy them at whatever price.   Would you rather have a $50 #3 Camalot or a $150 #3 Totem?

I'd probably pay anything for a #3 Totem considering they don't exist

John Clark wrote:

Sorta side tracking this, but the only reason I am looking at doubling my rack of totems is for the weird pin scars up to Sickle on the nose. With a single rack of totems, what do people WHO HAVE DONE THE ROUTE A FEW TIMES, think about getting Z4s as the doubles instead of totems to save some money, but still have adequate performance for yarding willy nilly on those scars?

The few Z4 offsets I got to test them out all kinked pretty badly when weighted (worse than the X4s do because of the stupid trigger wire config on the Z4s vs the X4s) and performed underwhelmingly in pin scars in Yosemite. If you're french freeing on them they probably won't kink as badly as standing on them but i wouldn't get a Z4 over a totem because I'm not too worried about a kinked cam when i'm flying backwards when they don't hold. 

Senor Arroz wrote:

Last time my kid was in the ER for a simple bike crash concussion I got a bill for $4,000. So seems like Totems aren't over priced at all. Though, to be fair, they do nothing to protect against bike crashes.

Tangentially, I used to run a summer camp with a mountain biking program and we've had to setup hauls and fixed lines to grab kids that endo'd off the trail and slid down a steep embankment. So Totems could be used to deal with the aftermath of a bike crash. 

I put together a double rack of Totems at about $70 each. So total investment is what, about a grand? And the difference between that and C4s on sale might be $200-$250 across a double rack?

Last time my kid was in the ER for a simple bike crash concussion I got a bill for $4,000. So seems like Totems aren't over priced at all. Though, to be fair, they do nothing to protect against bike crashes. 

Andrew Rice wrote:

Last time my kid was in the ER for a simple bike crash concussion I got a bill for $4,000. So seems like Totems aren't over priced at all. Though, to be fair, they do nothing to protect against bike crashes. 

au contraire mon frère

You can get 25% off at Als.com if you put items in your cart and sign up for emails. They will send the offer after a couple days. Along with AJ, it makes totems cost about $67 each. I'm currently buying them one at a time re-building my double rack

Seems like I’m really in the minority here, which is fine.
the major disconnect that I can’t wrap my head around though is this: 

totem fanbois- you make it sound like going climbing without totems is a death wish, and use ER visits as a justification that makes them “cheap” in the grand scheme. I’ve never had an issue in my climbing career getting other cams (offsets included) to place and stay, and catch falls, even on significantly run out or difficult to protect routes.

I really don’t see anything that makes them so much better.  Are aliens a thing of the past now? 

almostrad wrote:

 I'll probably just sell it and get an offset MC. They rack pretty bulky compared to other cams too.

Let the bidding start at 80 bucks, handy, and a 6 pack of cold snacks

So you are going to sell a cam that works great in off set wonky placements and also parallel sided cracks for a off set MC that only works ok in off sets and doesn’t work at all in parallel cracks?   Sounds like a good idea.  

They're $10 cheaper than a Camalot Ultralight which needs to be thrown out after 10 years. They're a bargain.

almostrad wrote:

I really don’t see anything that makes them so much better.  Are aliens a thing of the past now? 

I'm not sure where you climb so YMMV. I climb a lot at Joshua Tree. Cracks there are very weathered and flaring.There are numerous placements I can think of where a Totem holds great and a C4 doesn't. So, yes, somewhat safer. They also often place much quicker and without fiddling, which makes climbing more fun. Was I on the edge of death at every second with my old C4 rack? No. In fact I still own a full set of C4s and routinely rely on my #3 and #4 C4s with great confidence and pleasure.

But your rhetorical question was if they are overpriced. For marginally safer and more fun to climb with I don't think an extra $10 per cam is "overpriced." Especially with a product that will last 5-10 years. 

Yep, it's not that they are better than C4's but that they are a great addition to any rack.   They are arguably better than X4's and Z4's and even Off Set Master Cams.  I look at them as a cam that will pull double duty, I would say they are the jack of all trades master of none cam but they really are the best in pin scars and off sets and fine everywhere else.  

Black and Blue - Worth it easily (all of the reasons people rave about totems are highlighted in the smallest two sizes - which is why the blacks are frequently out of stock)

Yellow - Handy for sure

Purple and Green - For me, this seems to hit the point of diminishing returns: at this size of C4, the range is wider and the cam itself is bigger (more surface area to grab, stronger rating). I have less worry about the cam walking or difficulty equalizing both lobes 

Red and Orange - (I've never placed these but have handled them) The trend kind of continues here - more often than not, it seems that my placements with #1 and #2 C4s go in easy and feel secure. When racking and handling this size, the totems feel a bit awkward and obtrusive vs. the C4's. Price aside, I don't know if I would rack these.

TLDR: I'd double in black before buying a green

Nate Grygo wrote:

Black and Blue - Worth it easily (all of the reasons people rave about totems are highlighted in the smallest two sizes - which is why the blacks are frequently out of stock)

Yellow - Handy for sure

Purple and Green - For me, this seems to hit the point of diminishing returns: at this size of C4, the range is wider and the cam itself is bigger (more surface area to grab, stronger rating). I have less worry about the cam walking or difficulty equalizing both lobes 

Red and Orange - (I've never placed these but have handled them) The trend kind of continues here - more often than not, it seems that my placements with #1 and #2 C4s go in easy and feel secure. When racking and handling this size, the totems feel a bit awkward and obtrusive vs. the C4's. Price aside, I don't know if I would rack these.

TLDR: I'd double in black before buying a green

 

Green and above you really don't need unless you are climbing weird pocketed limestone but green and above the C4's are fine.  I have a double rack of Totems and still reach for the number 1 and 2 C4 on more than the red and orange Totem.   Now black through yellow I have quads in Totems and think they are worth their weight in gold in those sizes and always reach for them first.

almostrad wrote:

Seems like I’m really in the minority here, which is fine.
the major disconnect that I can’t wrap my head around though is this: 

totem fanbois- you make it sound like going climbing without totems is a death wish, and use ER visits as a justification that makes them “cheap” in the grand scheme. I’ve never had an issue in my climbing career getting other cams (offsets included) to place and stay, and catch falls, even on significantly run out or difficult to protect routes.

I really don’t see anything that makes them so much better.  Are aliens a thing of the past now? 

You're overthinking it. 

Totems have documented better holding power in flared placements than any other cam out there. Don't have to deal with flares where you climb? Then this part of Totems isn't for you. Good for you. Still makes them objectively a better cam than any others. 

Totems (because of their independant lobes) can work as well as offset cams for most offset placements. So they do double duty on your rack as both good in normal placements and good in offset placements. one can argue the cost savings here but I'm not going to. Don't have to deal with offset placements where you climb? Then this part of Totems isn't for you. Good for you. Still makes them objectively a better cam than any others. (And note that "most" is the important word in the first sentence of this section because of course there are outlier instances for everything, but those outlier instances do not change the objective value of the cam in most instances.)

Totems have additional abilities to be used with only 2 lobes in body-weight situations such as aiding. Don't do any aiding? Then this part of Totems isn't for you. Good for you. Still makes them objectively a better cam than any others. 

And most importantly, your perception about how people talk about a cam have no relationship to the objective value of the cam. That's where you're overthinking it. Then why did people bring up these things and talk about them like they're the second coming of fire from Prometheus you ask? Because you asked a question about a cam that is pretty much across the board considered objectively better (unless you're an old dad contrarian or a woke not-gunne-follow-the-crowd contrarian) so since all the normal things about the cam are already part of the climbers' zeitgeist the responses are going to get a bit out there in order to better illustrate the issue for you. 

Aliens and are great but they don't have any of the above structural benefits of a Totem cam. They were never a revolutionary design that changed the way cams work in the rock, they just had softer metal that made them bite better and wear out faster and were produced with the same level of care and attention to detail as most of my High School students put into their essays. 

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PS: to answer my own question about why would I try to convince you, I guess the answer is i'm bored and have time to kill which is somehow more important to me than having one less person to fight with when the blacks are in stock. 

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- - - - - - - - - below is referring to a post that comes after this on the next page because I hit my post limit for the day on this thread - - - - - - - - 

Deven Lewis wrote:

Also please show me the data and correct me if I'm wrong but I believe totems are rated for static body weight load like aiding when flared(only on two lobes) but is not recommended by the manufacturer for dynamic loads in the same configuration. Unlike offset cam which are recommended for both.

You've conflated two seperate things, that Totems hold better in flared placements and that Totems can be used in a 2 lobe configuration in shallow placements. 

Totems are rated like any other cam for flared placements with the obvious caveat that the greater the flare the less the holding power. The supported claim is that Totems will hold better in a flare than a cam of the same size in the same flare. Rating them for body weight would be weird unless it was somehow in the documentation showing various degrees of flare and stating this degree is rated for bodyweight and this degree is rated for falls (it doesn't show this in the documentation) 

Totems are rated for bodyweight only when in the 2-love configuration in shallow placements that won't accept all 4 lobes. 

Two Lobe Placements: https://www.totemmt.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/TotemCam_LoadingTwoLobes_En.pdf

Flared Placements: https://www.totemmt.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/TotemCam_Mechanical_Principles.pdf 

People who have already made up their minds are pretty much unable to change them, even if there is ample evidence they're wrong--that's sadly just how the human brain works. The only solution is skepticism: don't believe things until there's a preponderance of evidence. Since you've already made up your mind, there's no point talking to you about this.

This implies that all "change my mind"-style conversation starters are, in fact, not intended to solicit actual mind-changing. So when you see a conversation starter like this, you have to ask, what's the person actually trying to do? In this case, probably trolling.

Change my mind. ;P

David K wrote:

People who have already made up their minds are pretty much unable to change them, even if there is ample evidence they're wrong--that's sadly just how the human brain works. The only solution is skepticism: don't believe things until there's a preponderance of evidence. Since you've already made up your mind, there's no point talking to you about this.

This implies that all "change my mind"-style conversation starters are, in fact, not intended to solicit actual mind-changing. So when you see a conversation starter like this, you have to ask, what's the person actually trying to do? In this case, probably trolling.

Change my mind. ;P

Braj, 'change my mind' is a meme. It's a reference to some doofus who goes out to 'debate' people he disagrees with. The meme MEANS, 'fight me.' Your analysis of the situation isn't wrong; it's just already included in the meme.

JonasMR wrote:

Braj, 'change my mind' is a meme. It's a reference to some doofus who goes out to 'debate' people he disagrees with. The meme MEANS, 'fight me.' Your analysis of the situation isn't wrong; it's just already included in the meme.

Correct.

(The dude is Steven Crowder, a doofus of the highest order)

I feel like a lot of folk that own totems are the same people that own Porsches and corvettes to drive down the highway while a Buick would do you just fine. At a race track yes they'd win but I feel most of us here aren't race track climbers. 

My point, most climbs 5.12 and below were put up before the 90s where most climbers were using nuts, tricams and rigid stem cams. For the vast majority of climbs and climbers a standard bd and metolius will get you where you need to go safely.

My buddy I climbed with this summer had a full set of totems so I got to play with them a lot and I didn't feel any more or any less safe climbing with them.  But I'm not a race track climber. 

Also please show me the data and correct me if I'm wrong but I believe totems are rated for static body weight load like aiding when flared(only on two lobes) but is not recommended by the manufacturer for dynamic loads in the same configuration. Unlike offset cam which are recommended for both.

I climb an entire grade higher with a Black Totem on my rack.  It's like the "magic feather" they gave to Dumbo.

But seriously, the Black Totem is superior in my opinion to similar sized gear I've used (blue and green Alien originals, Trango Flexcam #1, Metolius Ultralight Power 1).  Bomber placements each and every time, easier to clean, ridiculously flexible, and very durable.  I don't have any of the other Totem sizes, but the Black is definitely worth the cash in my opinion.  Even better than a pink tricam.