ISO Kong prog to quick draw tips!

I climb with a one handed climber and we bought the Kong prog to aid with lead climbing. We have been having trouble swapping it out as the prog gets jammed and won’t open when you place your replacement draw in the bolt. Any tips for us? 

Michelle Gaudet wrote:

I climb with a one handed climber and we bought the Kong prog to aid with lead climbing. We have been having trouble swapping it out as the prog gets jammed and won’t open when you place your replacement draw in the bolt. Any tips for us? 

Use two. 

Also swap out by placing the new draw underneath the prog and if there's issues, clip into the new draw and hang on it to work on getting the prog off 

* OP doubled postet - so all replies are at one place I repost my reply in this thread again:

The Kong Buckle is thick - if you need some Buckle that stays opened (which I guess was your intention with the Prog?) than maybe try the Kong Panic Quickdraw - or if its cheaper in your area the Beal Blue Light Panic Sling, which uses the Kong Panic Biner.

I use it for its intended purpose, and the instruction advises to replace it with some other biner (your daisy + biner, or your safety lanyard or whatever you use...) as soon as you can reach the bolt - so I dont know if my suggestion fits your needs?

The Kong Panic biner is ridiculously heavy and thick and altogether a horrible part of the system.  The MadRock trigger wire is a good replacement for the Kong Panic biner and takes up less space on the piece it's connected to. 

Thanks Kevin - I didnt know the MadRock.

You are right that 38g vs. 83g is quite a difference, but just to defend the KONG Buckle a bit: Actually the Edelrid Bulletproof HMS Screwgate (yeah, no wiregate) weighs in at 82g too - so the reason for the weight seems like the big stainles part, so you can not count that as only downside, more like the "Heavier" Upgrade of the MadRock for people looking to use Steel in some occasions.

Anyways: I will try the MadRock Trigger and will try if it can "fail" to eject the gate if you clip it behind the release lever - because this was my first concern when I saw it. Maybe you like to comment on that?

Some other Q: What sling do you use for the Trigger Biner - because the Panic Sling by Kong or Beal comes with some sturdy but formable metal wire reenforced sling which works better than some unstiffend one?

Garfield LovesFood wrote:

Thanks Kevin - I didnt know the MadRock.

You are right that 38g vs. 83g is quite a difference, but just to defend the KONG Buckle a bit: Actually the Edelrid Bulletproof HMS Screwgate (yeah, no wiregate) weighs in at 82g too - so the reason for the weight seems like the big stainles part, so you can not count that as only downside, more like the "Heavier" Upgrade of the MadRock for people looking to use Steel in some occasions.

Anyways: I will try the MadRock Trigger and will try if it can "fail" to eject the gate if you clip it behind the release lever - because this was my first concern when I saw it. Maybe you like to comment on that?

Some other Q: What sling do you use for the Trigger Biner - because the Panic Sling by Kong or Beal comes with some sturdy but formable metal wire reenforced sling which works better than some unstiffend one?

The purpose of autoclipping biners like the prog or the panic or the trigger wire is usually to clip something beyond arm's reach, the weight of the biner is therefore important as the heavier the biner, the more "floppy" it can be on the end of the stiffened sling it's attached to. Thus, i can count the weight of the Panic biner as a downside for its intended use. Additionally, for climber that uses adaptive means, why carry a heavier item when a better item is lighter? Those climbers are dealing with enough additional systems to bulk up the weight they need to carry. 

I've used the trigger wire biner with my Kong panic draw for years now (primarily on bolt ladders when aiding but also for a few out of reach clips on sport routes. It is possible to fail to eject the gate if the bolt slides past the small space between the trigger and the biner, BUT that space is literally 2mm wider than the blot hanger stock. And when considering the method by which this is used (to clip a bolt above one's head that is out of reach) it's almost impossible for this failure to clip mode to happen unless one is trying very hard and moving he biner very slowly to maneuver the space around the stock of the bolt. And even if one is able to achieve this feat, the biner is still 8kn (1800lbs) in strength with the gate open and tbh, if you have the time to move the biner around the bolt stock to defeat the trigger, which meant you were trying to defeat it, then you can always consider maneuvering the biner to engage the trigger should one decide that defeating the trigger was a bad idea. (Protip: it's a bad idea.) In the situations where this is being used and then another biner is transferred to the bolt, you're not really going to create a load large enough to make this an issue. 

The Kong panic draw with or without the trigger wire biner swapped out is certainly a good turnkey approach to this system but taking a regular draw (or even better a regular screamer) and wrapping the draw in duct tape (maybe with a bit of coat hanger wrapped in with the draw before taping) is fine. These are the sort of things aid climbers have been using for years to extend their reach long before products like the panic existed. 

Garfield LovesFood wrote:

I use it for its intended purpose, and the instruction advises to replace it with some other biner (your daisy + biner, or your safety lanyard or whatever you use...) as soon as you can reach the bolt - so I dont know if my suggestion fits your needs?

The OP literally states that the reason they created this thread was because of their issues with swapping (ie: replacing) out the prog with another draw. So I'd say the Panic couldn't better fit their needs. 

Fail Falling wrote:

The purpose of autoclipping biners like the prog or the panic or the trigger wire is usually to clip something beyond arm's reach, the weight of the biner is therefore important as the heavier the biner, the more "floppy" it can be 

I've used the trigger wire biner with my Kong panic draw for years 

My Panic is bendable, yet stiff, and doesn’t sag or droop under weight of the biner.

How did you replace the original Panic biner with the MadRock Trigger Wire biner?  It’s strongly stitched into the Panic draw, which would have to be destroyed. 

George Bracksieck wrote:

My Panic is bendable, yet stiff, and doesn’t sag or droop under weight of the biner.

Impressive ignoring of the point of the weight argument which is the climber using adaptive means not needed to carry unnecessary weight. 

George Bracksieck wrote:

How did you replace the original Panic biner with the MadRock Trigger Wire biner?  It’s strongly stitched into the Panic draw, which would have to be destroyed.

It's not strongly stitched into the panic biner so I just took the biner off the strongly stitched loop on the panic draw and put the trigger wire biner onto the strongly stitched loop on the panic draw. I own two panics that were purchased over a year apart and neither has the biner stitched into the draw.  Here's some photos (with the second showing how little space there is between the trigger and the biner's nose.)

Fail Falling wrote:

Impressive ignoring of the point of the weight argument which is the climber using adaptive means not needed to carry unnecessary weight. 

It's not strongly stitched into the panic biner so I just took the biner off the strongly stitched loop on the panic draw and put the trigger wire biner onto the strongly stitched loop on the panic draw. I own two panics that were purchased over a year apart and neither has the biner stitched into the draw.  Here's some photos (with the second showing how little space there is between the trigger and the biner's nose.)

I questioned your implication that the draw holding the Panic biner “can be floppy.” How is that ignoring the issue of weight? Besides, I don’t think that the Panic is that heavy. 

Thanks, though, for your encouragement to remove the original biner. It has been a hassle to clip another draw into a bolt hanger and remove the Panic for eventual use higher up the pitch. A thinner biner would make that easier. 

George Bracksieck wrote:

I questioned your implication that the draw holding the Panic biner “can be floppy.” 

George, I bought a Panic last year and I find it annoyingly floppy.  Maybe there is some lot to lot variation.  Seriously, mine is floppy.  For many years before that I just used a screamer, jury-rigged with two chop sticks and some tape on the biner to hold the clipping biner stiff.  That worked great and I think I'll go back to that and just swap in the Kong biner, which does work well.  Phyl

phylp phylp wrote:

George, I bought a Panic last year and I find it annoyingly floppy.  Maybe there is some lot to lot variation.  Seriously, mine is floppy.  For many years before that I just used a screamer, jury-rigged with two chop sticks and some tape on the biner to hold the clipping biner stiff.  That worked great and I think I'll go back to that and just swap in the Kong biner, which does work well.  Phyl

If you find it floppy add some electrical tape to stiffen it up.

I have two of the longer Panics, and neither is at all floppy. If either gets bent, I unbend it, and it’s still not floppy. 

Mine must be defective!

I got 1 Beal Blue Light from 2020, and one original KONG Panic Sling from 2019:

My 2020 Version misses the bottom sewing, enabling to replace the wire. Also, the 2020 Version is stiffer than the 2019.

BTW: The MadRock Trigger arrived.

Well: For me, the first hand of the MadRock is not as convinient as the KONG Biner. The Kong biner just needs one movement: Open the gate and overcome the resistance to lock it. The MadRock needs you to pull the gate open and use your thumb to swivel the lock in place. It works, but it feels not satisfying to me. The inside dimensions of the biner also are identical, which would be a plus for the MadRock by comparison within regular biners, but in this case, the slightly bigger outside dimensions of the Kong buckle makes it a bit easier to grab with big hands.

Also, the shape of the MadRock Trigger is kind of stupid: They choosed a Biner that is optimized for ropes, and got rope guiding grooves at the top and bottom. Without a plane surface at the bottom, like the dedicated Kong Panic BIner has, your Biner is not aligned great. The Kong Sling was stitched too tight that I could position it good, so I needed to stretch the stitching "a bit with alot of force". Also, I used some PETZL Tangas and cord to kind of fix it in the positon, rather than using duct tape and make a mess ;) 

I guess I will use the MadRock and try to live with it, because the weight factor and the slimmer nose are some pro argument that you can not beat - but I switch back as soon as I do not like it anymore, as I would be okay with the tradeoffs in weight. But to each his own.

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