Anti-Crossloading Carabiner Orientation

A:

B:

Hey all, what do you think is the proper orientation for anti-crossloading carabiners? A or B? Does it really matter? The warnings/instructions sheet that comes with the carabiner suggests that the "A" orientation is correct, but says nothing about the "B" orientation. Is it the same for all anti-crossloading carabiners such as the Black Diamond Gridlock? What are your thoughts?

you already found your answer...

Specifically for the Gridlock, the BD instructions manual for that carabiner say to put it on the skinny end:

Either way is fine.  With the keeper, you are presenting the biner from rotating and loading it across the minor axis, which is weaker.  I prefer to keep the biner on my harness and then clip in the belay device, so A workes better for me.  But if you wanted to thread the Gri Gri and then connect the threaded biner to your harness, B would be the way to go.  I think A also gives you a little more room to work and might eliminate some pinch points, but I would have to play around with the set up to know for sure.  I use a Smart, and I couldn't use it in B, so this isn't even an option for me.

Personally I use A for tube-style belay devices, and B for things like GriGris and MicroTraxions.

Doesn't make a difference.

Also, there's no reason to use an HMS biner with a Grigri. In my opinion, a compact D shaped locker is superior because it's lighter weight and less chance of cross loading.

I used to use a BD Gridlock with the Grigri on the small side, but got away from that when I started using the Grigri for multi pitch. After leading a pitch, I've found it faster and less fumbly to hang the Grigri on the master point, rotate the biner 180* so the gate opening is now on Grigri side, pull up the rope and load it into the device, then I can re-open the biner gate just enough to get the Grigri closed. This works really well with a Petzl Sm'D Twist Lock. Then when it's time to swap leads, I can rotate the biner 180* again so the gate is oriented to take the device off the master point and onto the harness to give a lead belay. My partner stays secured throughout by clove hitching on the climber strand. Then when it's my turn to follow, I just rotate the biner 180* again so the gate opening is on the Grigri side, unload the rope, rotate 180* to take it off my belay loop and rack back on my harness, then climb with the device left open so it's ready to load again next time I give a top belay.

The Grigri is a great device, but it's easier to fumble and drop. The Gridlock's "horn" makes it worse, and instead I recommend a biner that rotates freely so you can flip the gate's orientation to open either on the device side or on the belay loop/master point side.

It makes a difference in a very small subset of situations, but it DOES make a difference.

I had seen someone belaying in position a gridlock biner + gri-gri, and when they caught a fall (a normal average sport fall) the little gate part of the biner broke, and damaged the belay loop on their harness.

Nobody died, everyone was fine, they just needed a new biner and a new harness. Could the damage have been greater, to the point of belay loop failure? I don’t know. I haven’t heard of such a thing happening. The guy was shocked, because he had belayed that way always, was not aware of the recommended position, and being an experienced sport climber, he had caught hundreds of sport falls without any issue at all.

The bottom line: follow the manufacturer’s instructions. It costs you nothing to follow them, there is no conceivable reason not to follow them, and in case the very rare thing happens, you’d be out of a harness, at the very least. Or maybe taking your partner to the hospital, or worse. Why do it? The reason you use the anti-cross loading biners is to prevent a rare problem in the first place. You might as well not buy an anti-crossloading biner in the first place, if you aren’t going to use it the way it is supposed to be used.

Edited to fix the mistake of which position I meant. The point still remains to follow the manufacturers instructions. 

Lena chita wrote:

It makes a difference in a very small subset of situations, but it DOES make a difference.

I had seen someone belaying in position B on a gridlock biner + gri-gri, and when they caught a fall (a normal average sport fall) the little gate part of the biner broke, and damaged the belay loop on their harness.

Nobody died, everyone was fine, they just needed a new biner and a new harness. Could the damage have been greater, to the point of belay loop failure? I don’t know. I haven’t heard of such a thing happening. The guy was shocked, because he had belayed that way always, was not aware of the recommended position, and being an experienced sport climber, he had caught hundreds of sport falls without any issue at all.

The bottom line: follow the manufacturer’s instructions. It costs you nothing to follow them, there is no conceivable reason not to follow them, and in case the very rare thing happens, you’d be out of a harness, at the very least. Or maybe taking your partner to the hospital, or worse. Why do it? The reason you use the anti-cross loading biners is to prevent a rare problem in the first place. You might as well not buy an anti-crossloading biner in the first place, if you aren’t going to use it the way it is supposed to be used. 

Position B is the recommended orientation for the Gridlock carabiner, as shown in Skyler's post. In your story that person was following BD's recommendation.

Anti-crossload belay biners are out of style, man. GRIGRI + Sm'D twist lock at minimum, + the little rubber TANGA stopper if you're a fancypants (I use a TANGA because my pants are superlatively fancy; many people are saying they're the fanciest pants around). However, even Petzl's tech tip on this topic doesn't come down strongly in favor of the TANGA, so you gotta do you.

Sm'D twist lock (confusingly called the Sm'D RL, while the TL refers to Triact-lock) is slick as heck. It's silly to have a favorite carabiner, but I am still delighted to report that it's my favorite carabiner. 

You're actually making an assumption.  Your manufacturer's directions don't show use of a Gri Gri - or any other belay device for that matter - so technically you bought the wrong biner to use with any belay device - both A and B are wrong.  This is an "HMS" biner designed for the Munter Hitch and they show how you would use it that way.  You'd lose in court if injured by any other usage.

That said, it's still easy to cross-load the A case - put the Gri Gri over the gate screw - like the Black Diamond x-load case, except bending over the gate, sort of caught on the screw.  Happens more than you'd think, IMO.  The B case is safer and more in line with what BD recommends for the Gridlock.  IMO.

I have the Gridlock and use it per instructions.  I like it.  It doesn't allow any reasonable x-load scenario.

Hunter Murray wrote:

Position B is the recommended orientation for the Gridlock carabiner, as shown in Skyler's post. In your story that person was following BD's recommendation.

Sorry, I mixed up A and B because when I was typing the response the OP’s photo wasn’t  in front of me. You are correct. I have fixed the issue in my earlier post. 

Pat Light wrote:

Anti-crossload belay biners are out of style, man. GRIGRI + Sm'D twist lock at minimum, + the little rubber TANGA stopper if you're a fancypants (I use a TANGA because my pants are superlatively fancy; many people are saying they're the fanciest pants around). However, even Petzl's tech tip on this topic doesn't come down strongly in favor of the TANGA, so you gotta do you.

Sm'D twist lock (confusingly called the Sm'D RL, while the TL refers to Triact-lock) is slick as heck. It's silly to have a favorite carabiner, but I am still delighted to report that it's my favorite carabiner. 

This is the answer. Petzl Sm'D twist lock (2 stage, red gate) is awesome for the GriGri. Never had it crossload on me unlike every HMS I've used before. 

It's not silly to have a favorite carabiner. I own 4 of the Sm'D twist locks and I just got the triple action for connecting to a glacier rope. It's a fantastic size and feels great, you can even do a Munter with it in a pinch. 

Don’t worry about cross loading. If you have 7kn at your belay loop ygd anyway. 

Pat Light wrote:

Anti-crossload belay biners are out of style, man. GRIGRI + Sm'D twist lock at minimum, + the little rubber TANGA stopper if you're a fancypants (I use a TANGA because my pants are superlatively fancy; many people are saying they're the fanciest pants around). However, even Petzl's tech tip on this topic doesn't come down strongly in favor of the TANGA, so you gotta do you.

Sm'D twist lock (confusingly called the Sm'D RL, while the TL refers to Triact-lock) is slick as heck. It's silly to have a favorite carabiner, but I am still delighted to report that it's my favorite carabiner. 

Personally, I'd recommend against the Tanga.

First, because it's nice to rotate the biner for multi-pitch efficiency like I describe above.

Secondly, because with the Tanga in place it racks the Grigri upside down on your harness making it harder and more fumbly to grab. With the Tanga on the spine, the Grigri is forced to be on the gate opening end of the biner rather than the gate hinge side. Because the weight of the Grigri rotates the gate opening end of the biner toward the ground while it's racked on the harness, you'll need to flip it on your gear loop to open the gate and unrack it. This puts you at risk of dropping the Grigri because you're trying to open the biner to get it off your gear loop while the device is also positioned beside the gear loop due to the Tanga.

This is the same reason I wouldn't recommend the Freino+Grigri combo in a recreational context. Unless you're a guide that gives a lot of top belays, the Freino's horn prohibits the Grigri from hanging on the gate-hinge end of the biner. Better to simply redirect the brake strand with a separate biner in the odd occasion you need to lower from a top belay.

Best practice in general is to unrack a belay device with the device hanging on the gate-hinge end of the biner, so that when you take an all-around grasp of the biner to remove it from your harness the device is held at the base of your hand opposite the gate opening. With this habit, there's less chance of dropping your belay device.

Whatever you decide, it’s good form to align the gate on the lever side of the grigri so that the action of the rope doesn’t accidentally unlock the carabiner.

johndrico wrote:

Personally, I'd recommend against the Tanga.

First, because it's nice to rotate the biner for multi-pitch efficiency like I describe above.

Secondly, because with the Tanga in place it racks the Grigri upside down on your harness making it harder and more fumbly to grab. With the Tanga on the spine, the Grigri is forced to be on the gate opening end of the biner rather than the gate hinge side. Because the weight of the Grigri rotates the gate opening end of the biner toward the ground while it's racked on the harness, you'll need to flip it on your gear loop to open the gate and unrack it. This puts you at risk of dropping the Grigri because you're trying to open the biner to get it off your gear loop while the device is also positioned beside the gear loop due to the Tanga.

This is the same reason I wouldn't recommend the Freino+Grigri combo in a recreational context. Unless you're a guide that gives a lot of top belays, the Freino's horn prohibits the Grigri from hanging on the gate-hinge end of the biner. Better to simply redirect the brake strand with a separate biner in the odd occasion you need to lower from a top belay.

Best practice in general is to unrack a belay device with the device hanging on the gate-hinge end of the biner, so that when you take an all-around grasp of the biner to remove it from your harness the device is held at the base of your hand opposite the gate opening. With this habit, there's less chance of dropping your belay device.

but my PANTS, John

so FANCY

nah, jk, this is good beta. I definitely have to deal with more fumbling with the TANGA installed for the exact reason you're describing. 

Demetri V wrote:

Don’t worry about cross loading. If you have 7kn at your belay loop ygd anyway. 

has a cross-loaded belay carabiner broken?  There are so many expensive toys to fix this problem, so I'm sure it must have, but as someone that's never used one of these anti-crossload devices, I really don't understand the point so I'm guessing I just missed something. 

Rob D wrote:

has a cross-loaded belay carabiner broken?  There are so many expensive toys to fix this problem, so I'm sure it must have, but as someone that's never used one of these anti-crossload devices, I really don't understand the point so I'm guessing I just missed something. 

Fishing lures aren’t made to catch fish. They’re made to catch fishermen. 

Rob D wrote:

has a cross-loaded belay carabiner broken?  There are so many expensive toys to fix this problem, so I'm sure it must have, but as someone that's never used one of these anti-crossload devices, I really don't understand the point so I'm guessing I just missed something. 

http://caves.org/section/vertical/nh/47/uiaa2.pdf

This question inevitably comes up whenever cross-loading is brought up. Yes, people have broken carabiners by cross loading. But let's pretend the answer is no, that no carabiners have ever been broken by cross loading before. Is that really a good argument against always loading the carabiner in its strongest orientation?

aikibujin wrote:

http://caves.org/section/vertical/nh/47/uiaa2.pdf

This question inevitably comes up whenever cross-loading is brought up. Yes, people have broken carabiners by cross loading. But let's pretend the answer is no, that no carabiners have ever been broken by cross loading before. Is that really a good argument against always loading the carabiner in its strongest orientation?

It’s pretty clear to me that the figure 8 is the problem, not the locker. The figure 8 becomes oriented in such a way that it acts as a lever, actually prying open the gate. I mean, for the love of God; they’re breaking lockers while rappelling!

This failure mechanism is not something that any climbers should be exposed to these days. I’m not aware of any good reason climbers should even own a figure 8 in the year 2020.

Demetri V wrote:

It’s pretty clear to me that the figure 8 is the problem, not the locker.

I agree, the figure 8 device was what broke the carabiner. But If the figure 8 device was loaded along the major axis of the carabiner, could it have broken the carabiner? Figure 8 device was part of the problem, so was cross loading. You cannot break a carabiner with the figure 8 device if it wasn't cross loaded.

The question asked was not device specific, but rather broad: can a cross loaded carabiner be broken? Every time someone asks that question, the implied argument is that cross loaded carabiner cannot be broken so we shouldn't worry about it. Well, I showed an example where a cross loaded carabiner did break. If you change the question to, "has there been a modern belay device other than the figure 8 that cross loaded and broke a carabiner", and you get a "no" answer, the last part of my post still stands: is this a good reason to just load your carabiner willy nilly, instead of making sure it's loaded along in the strongest orientation?