Safe Knot?

What are thoughts on this knot?  The strand on the left would be anchored to a tree and then rap down to bolts.  Then tie double bunny ears with back up knot to attach to master point.  The two strands at bottom are for top roping from and  then rapping to ground.  

I had a stroke. Draw us a diagram and we'll reccomend a better knot. If this knot almost killed me it will definitely kill whoever is climbing on it.

I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to achieve. If you have bolts, why tying it to a tree?

You top rope on a fixed line? What does your belayer think about that?

No belayer, solo top rope.

The bolts are too low to reach from the top.  Rappelling to reach them to set up top rope.  If I can't top out then walk back up, rap down to retrieve gear from bolts and climb back up fixed line.

Looks good for TR soloing, without seeing the knot in person.

By raping on a fixed loop, you will eventually have trouble with rope twist.  You will want free and separate ends at the bottom or the twist will be a hassle.

Here is my suggested and safer alternative (so you don't have to go off rappel)

1.  two lines from tree (rope doubled).

2. At bolt anchor, stay on rap but go direct to anchor.

3. Pull up some slack thru rap device and fix each line separately to each bolt - assuming you have a two bolt anchor.

4. continue rap and and climb back up.

Ģnöfudør Ðrænk wrote:

By raping on a fixed loop, you will eventually have trouble with rope twist.  You will want free and separate ends at the bottom or the twist will be a hassle.

Here is my suggested and safer alternative (so you don't have to go off rappel)

1.  two lines from tree (rope doubled).

2. At bolt anchor, stay on rap but go direct to anchor.

3. Pull up some slack thru rap device and fix each line separately to each bolt - assuming you have a two bolt anchor.

4. continue rap and and climb back up.

OP this is your best option. No loop that'll get twisted, and you're also not trusting your life on one bigass overhand knot. Use figure 8s or cloves with lockers on the bolts.

Best option at the moment without buying more rope or cutting the one I have.  No loop should twist as the two hanging ends are not connected.  They both reach the ground.

Probably not painting the whole picture, sorry.  I have two locking biners on the bolts attaching quad with two locking biners which the top two loops of the knot in question attach.

What I am trying to do is a tie a bunny ears figure 8 with one extra strand that is anchored above the bolts/quad top rope anchor.  I am wondering if this extra strand compromises the knot? 

Will half of your rope length reach from the tree to the bottom of the climb?  If not, then ignore what I said.  If so, then you are way over thinking it and making it way more hassle then it needs to be.

One other key here is that at the end of the deal you have to get back to the tree.  If you follow my setup, you can keep the ascender on the rope and you don't have to detach and reattach and dink around.  You simply pop out the anchor knot and keep going to the tree - risk free.

The two strands going down are for top rope solo.  They do form a loop at the bottom.  One strand for climbing and one strand for going down.

Double figure 8 (bunny ears)

No the loop from tree is only weighted when moving from or tree to bolts or moving back to tree after removing anchor and rope from bolts.

This may seem to be pedantic, but definitions/semantics are often important.

As I view this photo, the knot shown is not a “bunny ear” overhand, but rather a BHK Overhand.

Where it is highly unlikely that a “bunny ear” overhand will have a strand in one of the “ears” fail due to abrasion or rock fall; if it did occur, the knot is not redundant, as the strand only passes through the knot with no turns/twists throughout the knot.

A BHK would be redundant, as it is basically two independent knots tied together at the same time.

In either case, this set up as shown is not the most efficient set up.

What do we think of it? It looks complicated? The knot doesn't mean anything without a use case...

If you set this up (and if you do, please use another rope with a simple anchor as a backup, or better yet; do it from the ground...), try to imagine how it's actually going to be put to use. Is this really the simplest way to accomplish whatever you're trying to accomplish?

I'm guessing you're trying to create some kind of TR solo setup? Why are you building an anchor that you clip into, but don't trust, and tying this knot in order to back up on another tree that you don't trust as your primary anchor?

Why wouldn't you simply drop a single strand, tie into your anchor (or directly around the first tree) with a long tail and use the long tail to attach to your backup?

You do realize you can rappel on a single strand just fine, right? Ever been pulled up into the air while belaying and catching a fall? When you, as the belayer, lower yourself to the ground so you can continue to effectively belay, you are in essence on rappel. The only reason rappels are rigged as double strand is so the rope is retrievable by pulling one of the ends.

You're over complicating things. Over complicated can be just as dangerous as insufficient by virtue of being difficult to double check or by adding unexpected forces to the equation. Consider getting something like the anchor books published by The Mountaineers Books and the one by Falcon Guides. They're both great books and both are worth having.

Edit: Looking back through more of the discussion I think Gnofudor(sp?)'s suggestion is probably the cleanest and best. 

I would suggest taking a step back and evaluating why you feel the need to have two strands of rope coming down from your anchor.

This whole operation could be much simpler if you used only one strand for climbing and rappelling.

Single line from tree to the anchor. Clove hitch to a single locker attached to one bolt (this is basically just a load bearing redirect - the tree is still your backup). I don't understand why you need a second line for rapelling since you can go in-direct at the anchor and put yourself on rappel before you take off your TR solo device(s). Bring an ascender if you are worried about pulling the moves. There are other knots you can use in lieu of the clove hitch since some people find it annoying to undo the clove once it's been weighted (this is more of a problem when your lower anchor is just a piece of gear in an overhang) but it's not an issue if you have a two bolt anchor to work with. Your setup will absolutely get kinked to shit if you are rappelling on a loop (which will end up being more dangerous than anything that worries you about using a single bolt for the redirect anchor).

Demetri V wrote:

I would suggest taking a step back and evaluating why you feel the need to have two strands of rope coming down from your anchor.

This whole operation could be much simpler if you used only one strand for climbing and rappelling.

If I was top rope soloing I'd want two strands too, it's not impractical and it creates proper redundancy. Weighing a single rope over edges is one of the sketchiest things climbers do. For a rappel or a single toprope fall it's not a super big deal, if you're working a move and constantly swinging on the rope it can get really nasty.

OP, learn how to tie the double figure 8 on a bight and the alpine butterfly, and keep in mind that simple is bomber when it comes to rigging.

It’s fine.  A big ass knot covers a multitude of sins. 

Demetri V wrote:

I would suggest taking a step back and evaluating why you feel the need to have two strands of rope coming down from your anchor.

This whole operation could be much simpler if you used only one strand for climbing and rappelling.

/thread

You don't need the two strands going down to top rope solo. You can't TR traditionally off this either. So like...why are you doing this OP?

Is this what you're doing? I still don't think we have the full picture here.

Dominic Provost wrote:

If I was top rope soloing I'd want two strands too, it's not impractical and it creates proper redundancy. Weighing a single rope over edges is one of the sketchiest things climbers do. For a rappel or a single toprope fall it's not a super big deal, if you're working a move and constantly swinging on the rope it can get really nasty.

There are no edges that he's weighting a single rope over. That's why he has to use the tree to get to the bolts. Because the bolts are over the edge.

If the bolts (or trees) were above the edge, you would extend the masterpoint with two strands so that it's over the edge, then TR solo on one strand.

Agreed with the others who've suggested you're overcomplicating this. TR solo on a single line from the bolts is perfectly acceptable, and rapping into a loop is going to be heinous. If you're apprehensive about changing over from ascend/rappel on a single line then I'd contend you need more practice on the ground before attempting TR solo.

Anchor at the tree and use a redirect/rebelay at the bolts. This can be as simple as a locker + clove on one bolt (redirect) or a rebelay using a traditional sport anchor (opposing draws, quad, sling with masterpoint) and a figure 8 or bowline with a bight.