Anchors for multi pitch sport

I'm heading out on an easy/casual multi pitch sport route on Monday with a less experienced climber. I've done a handful of multi pitch, both sport and trad over the years, but don't do it regularly and am usually climbing with other experienced climbers. 

I read about setting up a quad with a cordelette in this post, but then I talked to a very experienced climber and guide, who said he just puts quickdraws on the anchors, clove hitches to both, then belays off his harness using a redirect through a locker on the anchor. This is super minimal and fast. 

I'll be using a single 60m rope.

1. Thoughts on this method?

2. If clove hitching on both quickdraws how do you equalize them?

As with most anchor debates: either one works, neither one is perfect. 

For your purposes, I'd go with the quad. If for no other reason than to give you and your "less experienced" partner a nice point to clip to and regroup between pitches. The other method seems like it might require having your systems a bit more dialed. Have fun. 

Do what you can do consistently, quickly, and safely.  If you have used one type of anchor system in the past, and are comfortable with it, keel using it.  300' off the deck is no time to be experimenting or trying to remember how to clip in.  You friend/guide using a simple and efficient system, but he is comfortable with it.  Don't worry too much about equalizing, it is far more important for the anchors to be redundant.  At the anchor, you have a bodyweight placement.

Whatever system you use, you might need 2 of them.  For multipitch sport, I go with a pair of quads, for trad I bring a pair of cordalettes and extra 'biners.  If you are swapping leads, you don't have to have 2 of the same anchor set ups.  I lead, build an anchor, bring up the second and then he takes off, leaving me at the anchor.  When I get up to his anchor, I only clip into the master point long enough to rerack and get ready for the next pitch.  If you are leading everything, you want 2 set ups so you can build and anchor and leave it when you lead the next pitch.

Not happy with the single 60M. That's needless envelope pushing. 

Make sure only you perform the ropecraft. Buddy just goes in direct to the anchors and stands there.

Thanks guys. We'll likely swing leads as the climbing is super easy.

Claudine Longet wrote:

Not happy with the single 60M. That's needless envelope pushing. 

Can you expand on that? To be clear: we're not rapping back down, we're walking off.

What if y'all can't make it to the top or one of you gets injured? Is 1 60 m rope enough to rap off or are the rappels double rope rappels? I think that's what zippy is getting at. From the route description you should be gucci with 1 60 m. 

The second part of zippys comment is just pure troll tho.

Trevor, if you are climbing to bolted anchors, a cordlette/equalette will be very quick since you won’t have to untie it, just hang it neatly on your harness and reuse.  With an inexperienced follower, I would belay from above off the anchor so the climber’s weight isn’t on me if he/she stalls.  Does your partner know how to belay from above.   what’s your bailout plan. Is the route difficult to rappel?  Can you get your inexperienced partner down?  Can you rap the route or do you need to improvise a rappel route?  Do you need tat and bail carabiners?

On so many pitches, route finding and time up and down can be bigger obstacles than the climbing especially if one or both of you have not previously climbed the route.   Walkoffs can also be tricky and trickier in the dark.

It’s tough when you ask a simple question on MP and strangers respond with unwanted or unmerited caution.  Your questions about a fundamental skill, anchor building, make me question your readiness.   Sorry to do that.

Have fun, be careful and post a few pics here when you are back.

**100’ is a rope stretcher on a 60 meter. 

The nice thing about modern bolted anchors is that it doesn't really matter what you do with them.  Just connect yourself to both bolts and be done with it.  In your case, a pair of pre-tied quads will probably be faster and simpler.

Trevor Hartman wrote:

I'm heading out on an easy/casual multi pitch sport route 

2. If clove hitching on both quickdraws how do you equalize them?

Don’t be overly concerned with equalizing if the anchor is bolted.  Clip in to one and back it up to the other.    Or use a figure 8 with bunny ears and belay off the shelf with your Grigri and forget the cordelette all together.  Equalized modern bolted anchors are way overrated.  

I'd ask for my money back if I hired a guide and that's how they belayed me. 

DrRockso RRG wrote:

I'd ask for my money back if I hired a guide and that's how they belayed me. 

Problem being the QuickDraw/clove hitch anchors or the belay off the harness with redirect?

If swinging leads, my go-to is a 2 loop fig. 8 with the rope. There’s a few ways to rig a masterpoint from which to hang a belay device. The easiest is a fig. 8 or overhand on a bight on the backside of the knot. This method is quick and requires minimal gear- just 2 free carabiners. 

Depending on the rock, bolts and installation proficiency each bolt is good for around 1500 pounds of pull out or shear strength. One is sufficient for fall protection. The 2nd anchor serves as a redundancy. 

The importance of the 2 bolt anchor system with sport routes isn't in weight distribution. It is in the statistical advantage of redundancy over a period of time. You are far less likely to fuck up and die with redundant systems in place. Every time you rely on a single point you increase your risk by magnatudes.

You do not need to equalize your anchors on a bolted route. You do need to always have a redundant system in place.

If climbing a route with all bolted anchors, I’d just tie a quad anchor before even leaving the ground, clip it to my harness and reuse it at every belay 

Mike Climberson wrote:

If climbing a route with all bolted anchors, I’d just tie a quad anchor before even leaving the ground, clip it to my harness and reuse it at every belay 

same... fast, super bomber, and idiot-proof

Mike Climberson wrote:

If climbing a route with all bolted anchors, I’d just tie a quad anchor before even leaving the ground, clip it to my harness and reuse it at every belay 

That ^^^.   Keep it simple. One for you, one for your partner.  Really efficient for all bolted belays.  Yeah, you’re carrying a little extra gear, but for the situation you’re describing I’d pre-rig a couple of quads. You want to keep this simple & straightforward as you’re starting out. 

Trevor Hartman wrote:

Problem being the QuickDraw/clove hitch anchors or the belay off the harness with redirect?

Neither are a 'problem' per se, but it's limiting in the sense that it requires swapping leads, or rebuilding the anchor, locks the belayer in the system unnecessarily making rescues harder, makes executing a raise more difficult, doubles force on the anchor vs belaying off the anchor, may be less than ideal with bolts vertically spaced or far apart, and generally shows a single pitch sport climber approach and or level of knowledge. The technique might be efficient and work just fine, but only within a narrow set of parameters. One would expect when hiring a guide that they would be using and teaching industry best practices. 

DrRockso RRG wrote:

Neither are a 'problem' per se, but it's limiting in the sense that it requires swapping leads, or rebuilding the anchor, locks the belayer in the system unnecessarily making rescues harder, makes executing a raise more difficult, doubles force on the anchor vs belaying off the anchor, may be less than ideal with bolts vertically spaced or far apart, and generally shows a single pitch sport climber approach and or level of knowledge. The technique might be efficient and work just fine, but only within a narrow set of parameters. One would expect when hiring a guide that they would be using and teaching industry best practices. 

I'm a guide, but if I'm not guiding I don't always use guiding technical systems. Sometimes what I do recreationally and guiding are the same, but plenty of times they aren't. 

In this specific case:

Lots of recreational parties swap leads. I prefer blocks, but there's nothing inherently wrong with it.

The anchor rebuild in this case is a clove hitch or two, so probably fine even if it's needed.

The belayer can execute a rescue more easily in this case. They can simply untie the clove hitches and then lower to the follower on counterbalance, pick them off, and down they go.

A raise is a bit more difficult, but I bet there's some variation on a Spanish burton that would do the job readily, though I haven't thought about it too hard.

The pulley effect on the anchor is largely irrelevant for following. For leading multipitch sport, you're at the mercy of the developer and where the first bolt is placed. So, either the lead suffers the pulley problem (where it's much more relevant), the belayer suffers a FF2 onto their waist, or a fixed point belay is needed. Otherwise, the pulley problem is there to stay regardless of anchor configuration. 

Vertically stacked bolts likely make this system better. It's not too far from a banshee belay, and a vertical bolt configuration means that the upper bolt can be tensioned to the lower one, eliminating any slack/extension.

Bolts that are far apart are also easily resolved, as the rope is in play so there is plenty of material. Just clove hitch to each as described. 

I'm inclined to think there is an alternative to the (presumably low) level of single pitch sport climber knowledge wherein this system could contrarily hinge on quite a high level of knowledge and principles-based understanding.

As mentioned if they’re horizontally spaced bolts and there’s 2 bolts about a foot apart at all belays use two pre tied quads. 

If there’s anchors with 3 bolts or vertical spacing you’ll want to know how to use the cordelette with a BFK in a few configurations. 

If swinging leads and going minimal I’d rather go with bunny ears than two draws. But anything works. As mentioned go with what you’re used to.

Derek DeBruin, I'm not sure who you're trying to convince other than just being contrary, belaying the follower off the anchor is typically better in almost every way. The fact that you can do similar setups which are good doesn't make the ops setup any better. A big toolbox with the sorts of techniques you described are great, but teaching beginners we usually try to stick with setups that work well in the majority of situations while remaining hard to screw up. Just my two cents.