Metolius PAS question

Hi Folks, 

Anybody have an idea why Metolius makes the last loop of their PAS a different color?  Is this just to have a quick visual of where the last loop is?  

I'm asking because my daughter has been using a Metolius PAS, and since she's only 11, it's a little long to wrap around her waist, and I was thinking about cutting off that last loop.  I know it's probably no big deal, but I thought I'd ask.  

Also, what do people think about using something like the rubber keeper thingy from a quick draw to more securely fix the carabiner to the last loop of the PAS?

Thanks.

You’re correct. 

Cutting the last loop is zero problem. 

It’s a small mistake to fuck up with a rubber bit that could cost a life. Not worth it. 

Care to expound on the problem w a rubber band? Aside from not being able to easily rotate the biner to a “basket down, gate out” orientation, I’m not seeing the YGD issue...

There was a death related to the rubber band thing where basically the only thing clipped was the rubber band, then the person weighted the QuickDraw and fell to their death. I agree, it’s not worth it.

Christian Hesch wrote:

Care to expound on the problem w a rubber band? Aside from not being able to easily rotate the biner to a “basket down, gate out” orientation, I’m not seeing the YGD issue...

https://rockandice.com/tuesday-night-bouldering/tnb-the-tragedy-of-tito-traversa/ 

dindolino32 wrote:

There was a death related to the rubber band thing where basically the only thing clipped was the rubber band, then the person weighted the QuickDraw and fell to their death. I agree, it’s not worth it.

Which had nothing to do with a PAS.

If you use a keeper band on a large loop (like found on a PAS or a sling, but really it applies to any loop large enough for the carabiner to "reclip" through the loop it's attached to), there is a serious YGD risk. The problem comes if the carabiner is ever "reclipped" through the loop; as soon as that happens, the only thing holding the carabiner to the loop is the keeper band, and an untrained or unattentive person (like a child, but also literally anyone) will not notice and will go straight to the ground as soon as they weight the sling. Here's the Alpine Savvy article on it:

https://www.alpinesavvy.com/blog/dont-put-rubber-bands-on-an-open-sling

Don't do this.

Gunkiemike wrote:

Which had nothing to do with a PAS.

Politely: this is unbelievably bad beta and is probably worth deleting. The problem as described is 100% present with a PAS, especially the Metolius one, where the loops are way more than big enough to present with an issue identical to the issue with an alpine draw.

To the OP: Don't do this. The people telling you that it's fine or it isn't an issue with a PAS are strictly wrong and do not have a functional understanding of the issue. Don't do this. Don't do this. Don't do this. Watch the video linked at the bottom of the Alpine Savvy article. Recreate the problem with your PAS, any carabiner, and a rubber band while sitting at your kitchen counter. Don't do this.

Pat Light wrote:

Politely: this is unbelievably bad beta and is probably worth deleting. The problem as described is 100% present with a PAS, especially the Metolius one, where the loops are way more than big enough to present with an issue identical to the issue with an alpine draw.

I'm totally with you re. don't use rubber bands on open slings, especially large ones. 

But citing Tito T's tragic death (upthread; I know it wasn't you who brought that up. Maybe you missed that detail.) as support for the idea is way off the mark - those were rigid, closed dogbones, they weren't clipped twice, and no one added rubber bands to them. My understanding is that they simply set them up incorrectly using the stock keepers. That's about as relevant to the PAS question as, say, Todd Skinner's death is to an inquiry about girth hitching the PAS to the harness.

Gunkiemike wrote:

That's about as relevant to the PAS question as, say, Todd Skinner's death is to an inquiry about girth hitching the PAS to the harness.

If someone was girth hitching their pas to their belay loop on their harness the way that TS girth hitched his daisy chain to his harness then it would be a relevant comparison. 

http://publications.americanalpineclub.org/articles/13201110000/Fall-on-Rock-Equipment-Failure-Due-to-Mis-use-West-Virginia-New-River-Gorge-Kaymoor

Here's an example of a climber using rubber keepers on the personal anchor slings and dying. (Not a PAS, but still very relevant).

If you're dead set on using a keeper you could tape closed the entire PAS link to make reclipping it impossible. But really, don't use a keeper.

Austin Donisan wrote:

If you're dead set on using a keeper you could tape closed the entire PAS link to make reclipping it impossible.

True, but if that tape stretched or ripped just a little bit, it could create room to clip back into the loop, and then the climber would be held only by the keeper plus some tape.

 But really, don't use a keeper.

100% Agree. Especially for a child. 

If the PAS is too long for your daughter, you have another option besides cutting off the end loop. You can girth hitch the PAS to her harness using one of the loops somewhere in the middle, then girth hitch both ends through the loop. This way you will end up with two ends to work with, one can be used as the anchor tether and the other can be used for extending a rappel device (if she can rappel by herself).

Here's a photo that shows you what I mean. Again, make sure to girth hitch both ends. Otherwise, you create a dangerous set up where if you weigh only the end that's not girth hitched, the whole thing can come undone.

Fail Falling wrote:

If someone was girth hitching their pas to their belay loop on their harness the way that TS girth hitched his daisy chain to his harness then it would be a relevant comparison. 

Oo, good point. Let me see if I can come up with a better analogy. 

Howabout TS death vs debating strength of the "haul loop" on the back of the harness.

Gunkiemike wrote:

Oo, good point. Let me see if I can come up with a better analogy. 

Howabout TS death vs debating strength of the "haul loop" on the back of the harness.

I didn’t study the details of the death and really doesn’t make a difference to the overall suggestion. A rubber piece was obscuring what was actually clipped. It seems like someone is in the mood to argue small points, not me.
to the OP, cutting the loop should be fine but I wouldn’t reduce clarity to what is actually clipped... any increased chance for a problem is a chance to avoid one as well.

Hi Folks, 

Thanks for the replies, especially the heads up about the rubber band keeper.  Actually, I had seen that video some time ago, but forgotten....age and memory.  One could argue that it wouldn't be as much of an issue with a stiff loop like that on a PAS, but definitely for me the risk or it getting clipped through itself while in my pack, in storage, and so on, is too great.  I will definitely not try this.  

I'm thinking that for my daughter a shortened PAS with a regular old biner attachment with work perfectly.  

I have an additional question, but I'll post it as a separate thread so it doesn't get buried.  

Thanks again, 

Bruno