Red Rock to begin reservations to better control crowds - Part 2

Brian Wetzel wrote:

Where did you find that the campground comes with a reservation?

A FAQ sheet on the BLM.gov website says: "Visitors with campground reservations will still be required to reserve timed entry into the Red Rock Canyon Scenic Drive. "

He's saying that's how it works in RMNP.

Sam Cieply wrote:

He's saying that's how it works in RMNP.

Ah, I see.  Thanks. 

Update as of 7:03 am all of December appears to be booked and only the first week of nov has some availability. With how fast the weekends sold out I cant help but wonder just how many passes were released. 

andy r wrote:

Update as of 7:03 am all of December appears to be booked and only the first week of nov has some availability. With how fast the weekends sold out I cant help but wonder just how many passes were released. 

December isn't released yet, and won't be until 30 days prior...as of 8:10 am, all dates for the next 30 days (starting on 3 Nov when the program starts) have available passes all day, including that first weekend of 7-8 Nov. 

EMFR I wrote:

December isn't released yet, and won't be until 30 days prior...as of 8:10 am, all dates for the next 30 days (starting on 3 Nov when the program starts) have available passes all day, including that first weekend of 7-8 Nov. 

I stopped checking after the first 10min. I just went back on and they have more times slots than they did at 710am. Perhaps they deleted duplicate reservations. 

It seems you an enter before 6-8am for free.

FB post from Southern Nevada Climbers Coalition: "Entry into the Scenic Loop will be permitted without a reservation from 6 a.m. to 8 a.m. daily and for people entering by foot or bicycle. Please take a look at the FAQ that the BLM put together for more information on the new system."

I'm going to try to make the meeting tonight with SNCC, Access Fund and BLM at 630pm PDT tonight. We're out climbing on the road so the connection might be shaky.

I'd really like to hear what's going on with current reservation experiences. Can people please post up with more info about reservations selling out?

I've spoken to A LOT of people and this new scheme has been met with widespread dislike.

John Hegyes wrote:

I'm going to try to make the meeting tonight with SNCC, Access Fund and BLM at 630pm PDT tonight. We're out climbing on the road so the connection might be shaky.

I'd really like to hear what's going on with current reservation experiences. Can people please post up with more info about reservations selling out?

I've spoken to A LOT of people and this new scheme has been met with widespread dislike.

Nothing has sold out yet as of 6:30 pm. I would be able to get an entry pass for any day or time I want from 3 Nov through 12 Nov (30 days from now), including the weekend.

I'm very thankful that the SNCC had an "open forum" with the BLM and the Access Fund. SNCC President, Leici Hendrix, did a admirable job collecting all the questions from the climbing community, directing them to the BLM to answer, and I'm appreciative of her efforts.

However, I was disappointed in the "open forum" format. Except for the representatives from the SNCC, BLM and the Access Fund, no one was given the opportunity to speak. The participating members of the public were relegated to texting questions to the Coalition President who then summarized them. The moderation was strict and some editorial comments were left unspoken and unaddressed. This was not an "open" forum but a fact-finding meeting.

The questions belied a great amount of incredulity about the reservation program. Flaws on the system were revealed. The pros and cons were discussed. Overall, I think the reaction was overwhelmingly negative, but due to the saintly, neutral stance adopted by the SNCC, the BLM probably walked away thinking we are all on board, which I don't believe to be the case.

If we were going to participate in a true and transparent exercise in democracy, the BLM would have really gotten an earful. Especially if the forum included members of the greater public community, not just the climbers. If the climbers and hikers joined together and voiced their displeasure, it would have been very substantial.

Here are a few things I learned, or confirmed to be true:

1. The reservation system is permanent. It will run for 8 months a year, from now on.

2. All of the $2 fee goes to the private contractor that runs recreation.gov, Booz Allen Hamilton. With 3.75 million vehicles entering Red Rock per year, this company stands to pull in $7.5 million annually. None of this will be used for Red Rock improvements.

3. Plans are in place to begin charging access fees for Calico Basin. Since Calico will experience increased usage as people try to evade the reservation system, I speculate that it is only a matter of time before reservations are required for Calico as well. I'm starting another discussion thread about this, in order to get the word out to a wider audience.

4. Reservations can be made at the very last minute, for immediate entry. The toll booth operators will personally book reservations for people subject to availability. This is great, but will obviously increase wait times as the operators fill out the required information.

5. People without internet or credit cards will not be able to obtain a reservation unless they do so at the toll booth. The BLM representative seemed baffled that anyone would be off the grid in this way, he suggested that such a person "gets someone else to help them out". I find this to be particularly discriminatory and out of touch.

6. There will be a firm cut-off time at 8am. If you are in line at 7:40am, trying to get in during the early-bird window (without reservation), if the line moves so slowly that you don't get to the booth until 8:01am, you are out of luck.

7. If too many people try to go in to the Loop before 8am, in order to evade the reservation requirement, the BLM will eventually require reservations for the entire day starting at the opening time, 6am.

8. A timed entry window runs from 30 minutes before to 30 minutes after the reserved time. The BLM representative said if the line is moving so slow, that a vehicle is late getting to the toll booth, the operators will let things slide. Is this a documented policy? I see a great possibility for arguments at the booths, increasing wait times even further.

9. A Red Rock capacity study was done in 2019 for the BLM. It would be good to get a copy of that so that we can all see the data and make well-thought out suggestions for alternatives.

10. The BLM was confronted about the lack of public input prior to instituting the reservation system. The assistant field manager said that he received anecdotal remarks from mysterious members of the community. These people seemed to unanimously agree on the need for a reservation program. Who are these people? I don't know anyone that agrees with the new system.

11. The toll booth plaza will be renovated soon, increasing the number of booths to four and building a roundabout beyond the booths to usher the people with no reservation, back out to the highway. I predict a perfect storm of traffic with lengthy construction delays.

12. Commercial permit holders do not participate in the reservation system - they are juiced in. The reservations are only for the little people.

13. The BLM representative was asked about how many vehicles will be allowed to enter per hour. The answer was only that "it's complicated" and too difficult to explain.

14. You can cancel your reservation but sorry, no refunds! The gist here is that no one will bother to cancel. So if the weather is a little off, and the tourists decide to gamble on the strip instead, people like me just might get locked out of Red Rock on a day when all the parking lots are practically empty.

Since we were gagged last night, unable to talk to the BLM directly, I will have to send my comments directly to them.

I would like to know exactly where the SNCC and the Access Fund stand on this new program.

John Hegyes wrote:

If we were going to participate in a true and transparent exercise in democracy, the BLM would have really gotten an earful.

A true and transparent exercise in democracy that allows that person who drew an ASCII penis in the chat to speak their well thought out opinion.

They're going to do whatever they want until we pressure our elected officials to take that power away from them.  Instead of calling the BLM, call your congressman/woman.  It's clear the BLM isn't listening, never wanted to hear what anyone else had to say, and based on past performance will continue along the same lines.

NegativeK wrote:

A true and transparent exercise in democracy that allows that person who drew an ASCII penis in the chat to speak their well thought out opinion.

This is true freedom

Kevin Heckeler wrote:

It's clear the BLM isn't listening, never wanted to hear what anyone else had to say, and based on past performance will continue along the same lines.

well, what would you expect from an agency whose leader was illegally running the organization....

8 months a year of this? Looks like summer is prime season at red rock now....

One of the other take-aways from the “open forum” on October 13 was that if Red Rock is sold-out on any given day, you can simply book a private ride with a vendor – say, Pink Jeep Tours, as a random example. It seems that because concessionaires are exempt from the reservation system, you will always be able to buy your way into Red Rock, but you may not like the price!

Also, federal holidays are blacked out on the timed-entry reservation system for Red Rock. For example, reservations cannot be made for Veteran’s Day, November 11. What is the plan for these days? Will holidays be exempt from the reservation system? If that’s true, in the future expect the type of grid-lock that we have seen on the fee-free entry days. I’ve avoided Red Rock on fee-free entry days because of serious long lines, and I feel that these days have been unfairly used as evidence of over-crowding.

I have received a number of personal emails through the Mountain Project from individuals that are upset about this new system. I will post up some anonymous excerpts in a later post, so that the discussion may continue on this site. If others would like to contact me, feel free.

The Southern Nevada Climbers Coalition has board meetings on the second Wednesday of each month. That means they had a meeting two days ago on October 14. This was one day after the “open forum” that was held with members, BLM and the Access Fund. SNCC has not issued any sort of statement on their response to the new policy. In fact, they have not posted anything since they said here on MP that the “open forum” was recorded and will be made available for all to see. I wanted to attend the board meeting but I was unable to. I would like to know, where does the board stand on the reservation system?

I heard a report this morning that in defiance of a federal district court, William Pendley is simply refusing to leave. So it's no surprise that the BLM is proceeding in defiance of the public as well.

Are you tired of all the winning yet?

@John I think it would be good if you posted information about who we can contact to put some pressure on this. 

I was wondering if they were going to increase internet bandwidth at the toll booths. Credit card transactions have historically been pretty slow at the booths and now the reservation system is going to increase the data burden required to get people processed as quickly as possible. Well, maybe my question here has been answered by an email I just received from Save Red Rock. 

It seems the BLM is planning on installing a fiber optic link from town to the toll booth/visitor center area along with 7 mini cell towers in Calico Basin and along highway 159. This is being done to expand cell phone service along the highway, says the BLM. They don't mention this, but I speculate that the fiber optic system will provide a direct data link to the toll booths. Of course, this link won't be installed for some time. The public comment period lasts until November 6 and the estimated construction time line is 8 weeks. Why would the reservation system be put in place BEFORE the data infrastructure is installed?

I'm not going to opine here on the visual effects these mini-towers will have in Red Rock. But what I find particularly galling is that the BLM is soliciting public comments for the installation of the new system. That's fine by me, get your comments into the BLM by November 6. But what I have to ask once again is, WHY WAS THERE NO PUBLIC COMMENT PERIOD FOR THE RESERVATION SYSTEM??

Here is what an actual solicitation for public comments looks like.

Excerpt from Save Red Rock email, 10/16/20:

Make Your Voice heard!

Participate in the BLM's public comment for the Crown Castle Communications Project

The Bureau of Land Management Southern Nevada District has opened a public comment period for a proposed communications infrastructure project in Red Rock Canyon National Conservation Area.

The proposed project would consist of six new utility poles, seven antenna nodes, and installation of fiber-optic cable. The proposed project would expand wireless voice and broadband services, and may improve communication access for emergency services.

Learn more about the Proposal

Public comment closes Friday, November 6

The BLM has completed an environmental assessment on the project, which can be found here. Hard copies of the assessment are available upon request from the BLM Southern Nevada District Office.

You can make your voice heard by writing into the BLM Red Rock/Sloan field office, ATTN: Crown Castle EA, 4701 N. Torrey Pines, Las Vegas, NV 89130. You can also participate electronically by visiting the BLM website.

I will admit the car traffic has been horrible.  We drove the loop looking to climb at Willow Springs, and arived to a Park guide telling us there was no parking and had to continue on.  No parking at Ice Box.  Circling the loop isn't an option. We found some nice climbs up Pine creek.

Are they only concerned with Car traffic?

I feel the tram system at Zion works great.  Is this an opportunity for a private company to open a tram system?  instead of an entrance fee.  we can buy a seat on a tram at the bottom and ride the loop to the climbs we want?

John Hegyes wrote:

One of the other take-aways from the “open forum” on October 13 was that if Red Rock is sold-out on any given day, you can simply book a private ride with a vendor – say, Pink Jeep Tours, as a random example. It seems that because concessionaires are exempt from the reservation system, you will always be able to buy your way into Red Rock, but you may not like the price!

Also, federal holidays are blacked out on the timed-entry reservation system for Red Rock. For example, reservations cannot be made for Veteran’s Day, November 11. What is the plan for these days? Will holidays be exempt from the reservation system? If that’s true, in the future expect the type of grid-lock that we have seen on the fee-free entry days. I’ve avoided Red Rock on fee-free entry days because of serious long lines, and I feel that these days have been unfairly used as evidence of over-crowding.

I have received a number of personal emails through the Mountain Project from individuals that are upset about this new system. I will post up some anonymous excerpts in a later post, so that the discussion may continue on this site. If others would like to contact me, feel free.

The Southern Nevada Climbers Coalition has board meetings on the second Wednesday of each month. That means they had a meeting two days ago on October 14. This was one day after the “open forum” that was held with members, BLM and the Access Fund. SNCC has not issued any sort of statement on their response to the new policy. In fact, they have not posted anything since they said here on MP that the “open forum” was recorded and will be made available for all to see. I wanted to attend the board meeting but I was unable to. I would like to know, where does the board stand on the reservation system?

Just a heads up, our board meeting is actually the 19th of this month so we haven't had the chance to discuss the forum quite yet. I can at the very least assure you that many of us are concerned about climber access; it's a really tough issue considering how little room they are giving to budge on this matter. More to come, and thanks for being apart of the forum, you brought up important questions!