Living in Vermont, what is it like?

Hi,

I am originally from Philadelphia, PA.  I haven't lived in PA since before college, for the past 6 years I have been based in Los Angeles, CA.  I can't really foresee a future here and have been pondering the idea of living in Vermont.  Some of my girlfriend's family lives in Stowe and it seems like Vermont would cater to our interests well.

I want to ask the community what living in Vermont is like with regards to backpacking, climbing (sport and boulder) and snowboarding/skiing, renting or purchasing homes.  As well as how is the climbing/outdoor community?

Since living in Los Angeles, it has been easy to find motivated climbing partners for weekend trips and longer trips around the American Southwest.  Does the same exist in Vermont?

Are there any areas you recommend living for a vibrant local climbing/outdoor community?

If these questions are stupid or misguided please let me know.

Thanks,

Nick

Ice climbing 10/10

Rock climbing 10/10 (if you’re willing to climb in 95F with 86% humidity, or while it’s snowing)

If you are eager and friendly there is no shortage of partners. 

Living in the Northeast is awesome. Can’t speak about Vermont specifically but I’m sure you’d be within 3-5 hours of NH climbing (Cathedral Ledge, Pawtuckaway, Rumney), NY climbing (Gunks, ‘Dacks), some Mass climbing (Great Barrington), as well as obviously everything Vermont has to offer. Great mix of amazing bouldering, sport, trad and ice up here! Not to mention, if you don’t mind driving nonstop, the Northeast is within reach of the Red, the New, Chattanooga, etc for week trips! (All of these are just one long day of driving from me, whip out google and see if their so for Stowe)

Vermont is a wonderful place to live if you're into rural/small town/small city life and progressive politics. 

Rock climbing wise it tends to be a bit less crowded than NY and NH. Rock isn't bad locally, the stuff within reasonable driving distance is very good. Main thing about being a rock climber on the East coast is rain. It just happens a lot more than where you are. If you have a flexible schedule you'll be fine, but being a weekend warrior can be frustrating. 

Backpacking - Long Trail is here. Easy driving distance to the best parts of the AT (NH, ME). Again I think the difference is dealing with rain. And the trails are pretty brutal, no gentle switchbacks.

Ice climbing - as good as anywhere. 

Skiing - best on the East coast which some might say is a low bar. Anyway you're gonna have to get psyched on being cold and getting on icy hard packed slopes with some frequency. It's not Tahoe powder. 

Climbing community is great. Lots of quiet/humble local crushers. Not as much of a look-at-me scene as I've seen elsewhere. 

Renting/buying is tough. The word is getting out about Vermont. Lots of wealthy Boston/NYC types snapping up second homes in cash before the locals can get an offer in. COVID seems to have given them extra motivation since we've done well here. 

I'm really appreciating the feedback from everyone, it's great to hear about specific trails or crags and get a sense of the weather.  Some thoughts I've had about the North East are being confirmed.

It's been a blessing not having to deal with percipitation when rock climbing for the last couple years but I can imagine coming East it would 100% be a part of life.

Probably the best Covid numbers in the country as well......

I'm pretty sure that Stowe is not really Vermont. Its all rich  flatlanders. Vermonters  can't afford to live there. Most of the rock is lichen covered  choss.  Skiing  can be pretty  icy. Great  ice climbing.  The mountains  are small and  fuzzy. Vermonters don't really like Outsiders. I've lived here for over 40 years and I'm still not considered a local  

If you're going to be in the NE that part of Vermont would be hard to beat IMO. Stowe is 1 hr from Jay Peak. Jay gets 359" of snow a year. That's more than a lot of places in Colorado like Vail and Aspen. The terrain quality won't be as good (trails in trees instead of bowls and chutes). Stowe gets 314". Still better than many places out west.

It's good to have family nearby. When you weigh all the factors, that's a petty big factor.

I could not imagine living in LA itself, but with a few hours to half a days drive you have some of the best skiing and climbing in the world. Vermont is going to be much nicer were you live IMO, green, small towns, less pollution, just healthier country type living. But the mountains are ~3,600' elevation and mostly tree covered, while the Sierra is 9,000-14,000' tall and much more rugged. The scale is very different. The weather patterns will be similar in VT and PA, could rain anytime. Could snow. Obviously colder and more snow in VT. Vs. California were you have 300+ days of sunshine late Spring to Late Fall, but still have precipitation in the winter for snowboarding (Mediterranean climate which is pretty rare).

Nice to see you’re perpetuating it June by calling people who live in Stowe flatlanders.

I live in Burlington, which really isn't like living in Vermont, but I like it. Vermont is very agrarian and even the largest of the towns outside Burlington feel very quaint by comparison. Burlington isn't a bustling city and will feel very small compared to LA I'm sure but it isn't what most would think when they imagine Vermont either. 

It has it's perks and it's drawbacks for sure. As far as climbing goes, it does have two commercial rock gyms though, and a good pool of mostly youngish climbers and some very devoted developers that stay active unearthing new, safe routes for us lazy folk in Bolton and Smuggler's Notch. Burlington and probably Vermont as a whole isn't the snazziest spot for climbing access or quantity of options I'd say, especially if you limit yourself purely to sport and bouldering. If you're unwilling to get into trad, then you'll probably appreciate Rumney being very doable as a weekend or even a daytrip. As far as Vermont goes, I'd say Bolton is certainly the best spot for sport climbing as far as quality and quantity goes, with Smuggler's Notch coming in second but there are definitely other spots. Bouldering is very popular in Smuggler's Notch and local spots are slowly popping up on mountain project lately.

Overall, it's a beautiful place with somewhat complicated people. It isn't the worst place to live if you like climbing by any stretch. Hope you like the winter or are ready to deal with it! Especially if you live in the hills. Here's some photos I took around here since I moved last year. 

Jobs and housing are tough and everyone wants to be in chittenden and lamoille counties. if you can get either / remote work then you're off to a great start. 

Climbing season is short but there are some real gems i think. bouldering in smuggs is fun. black mountain seems like it has a lot of routes opening up. bolton satisfies the after work burlington crowd. The community is cool with CragVT putting on a nice fest the last couple of years.

There's also lots of biking; gravel, road, and mountain are all pretty popular. You dont get the views of the out west biking but the trees are cool and they don't spontaneously combust like in california. Just keep moving because you get mosquitos,and flies.

i like the skiing a lot. Even after lots of trips out west and even when i ski bummed the two worst winters in recent memory at Sugarbush I still had fun. the greens are nice and you can cross the lake to tour the daks or head to the whites to extend your season. Backpacking can be done but is also better in those other areas. The hiking is ok though. Not much beats getting on top of Camel's Hump on a nice fall day.

Lots of whitewater kayaking if you love cold water and scaring yourself. I always thought wind surfing looked fun, people even still do that.

All of this stuff means tons of tourists. beer nerds, leaf peepers, snow sliders... basically people all year besides mud and stick seasons. As a local you sort of have to love to learn the fact that you can get 60f in January and find something to do when the snow melts, and also 2' up high when you think it's 'rocktober'. Getting back to jobs that might mean you work in the tourist economy, which may mean a few different employers every year until you find a niche. 

If i wasn't lucky enough to live in Canada now then moving there would be pretty high on my list. There are lots of articles about people flooding VT now to get out of New York and Boston metros, so you won't be the first. My buddy echoes a lot of what June is describing, he has been there since he was 5 and he's now in his 60's and he's still a flatlander. 

With the real Vermonters getting diluted maybe that will matter less but dont diss anyone's maple creemee to be safe. Oh yeah, bringing your own girlfriend is a good idea.

VT is heaven during the Summer.  The winters are among the coldest in the lower 48.

Hiking and walking is excellent.  One can sail on Lake Champlain.

Food is excellent. Good restaurants, great local beer and excellent produce. (Farmers markets in the Manchester and Middlebury areas are pricey, NYC levels.  Expect to find intensely grabby New Yorkers among your encounters.)

Airport access basically sucks.

Past injury prevents me from skiing.  Fortunately,  I did 90% of my skiing in VT and it was so cold, icy and shi77y that I don’t miss it at all.

VT is paying work from home people to move there.  

Albert B wrote:

Nice to see you’re perpetuating it June by calling people who live in Stowe flatlanders.

Actually, I believe June mis-spoke; the correct term is " d@mn f'ing flatlanders..." 

Newcomers, who've lived through a number of "mud seasons," and don't act like dinks can become "d@mn flatlanders..."

ed "who, after 20 years has graduated to the coveted 'flatlander' status..." e

Quality of life is great, albeit expensive. Competition for jobs and housing is real. Working remote is ideal as Vermont will pay for you to move here, or get specialized, too much tourism as it is. Lots of good housing get snatched up by the deep pockets of out of state Trustafarians. Real Vermonters live in a shack with a buddy heater anyways.

If you like good beer, come here. Some of the best beer in the country. Beer and food are quite heady and expensive though. Try and meet people and go with the classic Vermont barter system. Fall colors are insane up here, we definitely have our rainy days too though. Expect some 50 degree days in December and some 20 degree days in April. Oh and weed is legal too. 

Great mountain biking, good skiing when it’s good. When it’s bad, pucker up and go get on some ice in Smugglers Notch or Lake Willoughby, some really impressive areas.

Rock climbing here is decent, mostly lichen covered schist. Few places for granite in northern part of state, and the granite is bomber, some overhung limestone on the lake. If you like sport climbing and bouldering, it’s a good scene. If you prefer trad, Dacks are 1.5hr drive from Burlington, Conway area is 2.5-3hr drive. 

Vermont has mostly real nice people and neighbors who will help you out. Don’t let all the douches in the Mercedes all lined up to get into Stowe on a pow day fool you.  Like a wise man once said, if you see a cow in the road that is not yours feel free to milk it, just leave enough in the gut for the next passerby. 

The trend has been for people to leave the Northeast.  Weather being the primary factor.  Economy and housing costs, depending on where you live, another.

LA has its own set of issues, but they're specific to LA.  As someone from the Northeast that moved West, I would discourage you.  There's plenty of great places in the West to live that aren't a tinderbox and don't bankrupt you to make rent.  In our search for places to live in the West, LA never even made it into top 10,000 list.  Couldn't pay me to live there.  lol

Tom Chingas wrote:

VT has the best powder skiing of the East Coast. There are nice birch glades in the back country. The low elevations and warm temperatures often produce mid winter rain events though. Rain on snow ice crusts are an unfortunate reality.

For rock climbing, the Gunks aren't too far a drive and are totally awesome.

best powder on the East Coast is like the best hair in the Hair Club for Men.

I'm not going to make an argument for East coast skiing if big powder bowls are the only thing that make you happy, but the access in Vermont is nice. Closest lift to Burlington is 35min away, couple more ~1h and there's no traffic. Lots of locals get an uphill lap at Bolton in before work. You can get a lot of time on skis. 

I'm in the Northeast for a combination of outdoor opportunities, minimal crowding, small town living, progressive politics and opportunities within my profession that doesn't exist out West. For sure if rock climbing and skiing were my primary hobbies I wouldn't be quite as satisfied, but luckily I love ice. Regardless it's a nice spot, it's not like moving to the Midwest. 

If you can make a place in CO/UT/WY/MT work out for you personally/professionally then sure I'd check that out over Los Angeles. 

Born and raised in NJ; lived in New England (CT primarily) for most of our adult life and moved to UT 20 years ago, never once looking back. I can never see living East of Denver again.

Live Perched wrote:

best powder on the East Coast is like the best hair in the Hair Club for Men.

Yeah there is no good skiing on the east coast. Do not watch the forecast. Never plan on doing anything fun in places like:

Maine:

NH:

Quebec:

NY:

and certainly not vermont, which gets more snow than any of those.

Kevin Heckeler wrote:

The trend has been for people to leave the Northeast.  Weather being the primary factor.  Economy and housing costs, depending on where you live, another.

LA has its own set of issues, but they're specific to LA.  As someone from the Northeast that moved West, I would discourage you.  There's plenty of great places in the West to live that aren't a tinderbox and don't bankrupt you to make rent.  In our search for places to live in the West, LA never even made it into top 10,000 list.  Couldn't pay me to live there.  lol

i am not saying the east is for everyone. playing the weather can be a drag. the bugs suck. if you live out west and want to ski you can drive up, or if you want to rock climb find someplace dry and drive down. i get that. but the east is not a death sentence. there are a lot of places to play with an open mind. as far as the trend of people moving west, that has been the case for a long time but I see a lot of friends that went west moving back to the hudson valley, maine, vermont, etc, because they are sick of droughts, fires, housing bs, etc. 

Petzl, that ME pic reminds me of skiing in the northeast when a high pressure system blows through and temp drop below zero and wind chill goes -20 or -30.  I was at Stowe with no sun and -50 wind chill at the summit. Good on you for loving it!!  The world need hardy people.  

Packed powder...the ultimate northeast euphemism.

june m wrote:

I'm pretty sure that Stowe is not really Vermont. Its all rich  flatlanders. Vermonters  can't afford to live there. Most of the rock is lichen covered  choss.  Skiing  can be pretty  icy. Great  ice climbing.  The mountains  are small and  fuzzy. Vermonters don't really like Outsiders. I've lived here for over 40 years and I'm still not considered a local  

Oh June, you’re so jaded...but for good reason, and your response is spot on.  The climbing is ok (so long as you continue to drink the Kool-Aid, the ice is stellar, and the snow can be “good”.  Stowe, as June pointed out, is not Vermont.  

Vermont is, however, bookended by NH and NY, which have higher concentrations of solid rock/better climbing.  The hills in those two states offer a better playground, too.  On the flip side, Vermont’s “cultural vibrance” is more colorful than the two scoops of vanilla ice cream that the Dacks and NH offer.  Just my two cents...