North Machines?

I've currently got a pair of Nomics that I use for waterfall ice. I've been eyeing the North Machines for a while now for easier climbs and alpine climbs (like N. Ridge of Baker, Pinnacle Gully, etc). I also have a sumtec for anything from basic mountaineering to moderate alpine ice, and was thinking about buying a second to have a pair. I haven't tried the Sumtec on ice yet, but I wouldn't see myself bringing a pair along for anything harder than WI3, and unless it's alpine, no reason to bring them over my Nomics (plunging and self arresting). I would be mostly using them for easy waterfall ice in the winter, and a few alpine ice routes here or there for the summer. 

Really, I see 3 options:

1. grab up a second Sumtec and use the two for alpine climbs and leave the Nomics for everything else, forget the north machines

2. pick up a pair of North Machines and use them for easy stuff and either a) pair one with a sumtec for alpine ice or b) bring both and leave the sumtec behind

3. Buy neither and just pair a nomic and sumtec for alpine stuff.

If I did #1, I'd rarely ever use the second Sumtec (waste my money, pretty much). If I did #2, I'd use the tools more often, but it simply just costs more (I'm in college). I feel like a nomic in option #3 is simply overkill, and also unnecessary for really easy climbs, or if I'm doing a lot of plunging I'd want something more straight. I guess my whole point here is to have the most versatile setup without buying shit that I wont use or spend a whole lot of money when I don't have to. 

So.. what do you find yourself using for easy climbs, alpine climbs, or even hard climbs? When you need to climb alpine ice but also do glacier travel or need to do a lot of plunging, do you bring two tools, two hybrids, or one of each? If it's harder alpine ice and/or mixed terrain, would a North Machine be sufficient for glacier travel and self arresting (I sure wouldn't want to bring 3 axes)? 

I have a pair of north machines that I use for easier alpine climbs. If I have to do any glacier travel, I just use one of the north machines as my axe for self arresting. I've never had to do it in a real cravesse rescue scenario, but in practice it works just fine. I would say the 3 axe method is overkill. I've climbed anything from steep snow to WI5 with those axes and they perform well in all scenarios. If I'm cragging, or climbing a significant amount of steep ice or mixed, I use the Camp X dreams.

I use Xdreams with the Alpine grip for  everything. grade 3 to 5+. Been threatening for years to get a pair of Cassin All Mtn for easy gullies but havent gotten around to it. I use  BD raven pro for this kind of stuff. 

I guess for easy alpine ice (let’s use N. Ridge of Baker for example) would your preference be two straighter tools or one tool and one axe/ hybrid? Another option would be to sell my Sumtec to fund the North machines, and buy a lightweight axe. I’ve found that many times that I wished I had an axe on an approach or climb, I left it behind because it was simply a heavy axe. I guess my overthinking is just coming from my lack of alpine ice experience

if its mostly steep snow with very little actual water ice the ultra light axes are the trick. 60 to70cm handle is a bit of a walking stick when it gets steeper and the weight is critical for old people because this kind of stuff usually involves a lot of hiking and elevation gain. 

If you feel comfortable self-arresting with the Sumtec, you already have an ideal setup that covers everything you need.  If not, get a Camp Corsa. 

Most of the time you will not be alone so you yourself do not have to carry a setup for all possible situations.  Lend your partner one of your Nomics so that you each have a technical tool plus a self-arrest axe as you traverse steep snow.   If you run into a section of glossy water ice, you will try to find a way around on snow, and you will feel comfortable going at weird angles on steep snow knowing you can arrest. If you can't get around the water ice, take both Nomics and hack it up. Send Nomics down on the rope or, if it's easy enough, he/she can follow your placements with a regular axe. 

I can easily climb short sections of grade 2+ water ice with a single ultra light ice ax . If the route was pure alpine and known to be grade 2 or 3 ice I would bring a pair of all mountains if I had them. I used to use my quarks for that duty but sold them to get the alpine X dreams.  simply because i don't have a pair of all mtns if I was going up in hunnington ravine this season I would most likly just bring the alpine x dreams if I was pitching it out. If soling I would have a super light pack so could afford to bring my BD raven pro as a walking stick or even bring trecking poles.

For just a bit of added weight, and no money, just pair a Nomic with SumTec like you’re thinking.  

maybe best (who doesn’t want a new axe) and cheapest (they’re awful spendy) option is to get Just one North Machine to pair with your Sum Tec for now.    Then move one way or the other if you really want to at some time.   I love the SumTecs but also love my old Top Machine pommels as most comfortable for leashless.  You may have the greatest range and compromise of all worlds with this option for anything you don’t want your Nomics for    

Another option going the other way for easy stuff is a BD Whippet paired with your SumTec.    Surprising what you can climb with it, especially if you’re into easy long alpine climbs and you ever use poles for any part (or skis).  

I won't tell you what is necessary because ultimately these are all silly toys and hard men were getting up those climbs with straight shafts when I was in diapers :-)

I will say, if you get North Machines, you probably won't hate them. I've tried a lot of tools and there aren't any I love swinging more. They swing themselves and are incredibly well balanced for the weight. Sure, I'd bring something with an ergo handle for steep ice but I really love the NM's for anything less. 

Also personally (everyone has an opinion) I don't find the Sum'tecs to be a particularly compelling weight compromise when you can carry a "real" tool like North Machines for the same weight. And Petzl tools don't swing well without pick weights IMO, which adds more weight. Just depends how much you value the spike. 

Now a pair of Gully's with pick weights, that saves you a little weight...

The North Machines are nice tools and fun to use, but hardly necessary.  The North Machine or Gully would be my preferred tools for climbs like the North Ridge of Baker.  

The only major downside to the North Machines, in my opinion, is that the lack of a great second grip position.  For alpine mixed climbs, where you want a stable second grip position, a Sum-Tec, Viper, or Quark would probably be a better option.  

If money is an issue, just stick with the Sum'tec and Nomic.  That combo will work just fine.  

If you do get the North Machines, I suggest that you file down the teeth on the pick to make holding the tool by the head more comfortable. I would also suggest sharpening the top bevel of the picks to make them easier to clean.  

jdejace wrote:

Now a pair of Gully's with pick weights, that saves you a little weight...

Is it just me, or is the Gully pick not manufactured to take a pick weight? I did put a massolette on my Gully, but the pick did not have the little hole for the protrusion on the weight So the weight is just kind of compressed on the pick, but not in a specific location. I have not used them with a weight yet but I assume the weight will get pushed around a little bit and harder ice since it's only positioned by the one small bolt.

Petzl seem to think it's ok in their tech info, but yeah the pick doesn't have the nice slots like the ones for ice tools. 

https://m.petzl.com/sfc/servlet.shepherd/version/download/068w0000003wuJYAAY

Karl Henize wrote:

If you do get the North Machines, I suggest that you file down the teeth on the pick to make holding the tool by the head more comfortable. I would also suggest sharpening the top bevel of the picks to make them easier to clean.  

Agreed!

Karl Henize wrote:

The only major downside to the North Machines, in my opinion, is that the lack of a stable upper grip position.  For alpine mixed climbs, where you want a stable second grip position, a Sum-Tec, Viper, or Quark would probably be a better option.  

Just to provide a differing opinion (not to say that Karl's experience isn't valid), I do not find the lack of the second position rest to be an issue on North Machines at all.  At the grades and route types we're talking about here, you won't be climbing sustained vertical terrain where matching and swapping on the upper rest is necessary.  I have no problem climbing up to WI4/M4 on North Machines (or Matrix Techs, which have the same handle geometry), which will get you up just about every classic alpine route on the planet, and I am definitely not a hardman who could climb hard on sharpened sticks.

For the the N. Ridge of Baker, if I was in your shoes, I'd just climb it with Nomics, or a Nomic and a Sum-tec.  I'd consider putting an adze on one of the Nomics if you carry two of them, or making T-slot anchors, belay stances, and crevasse rescue.  No sense buying a whole set of pricey tools for one route, and the Nomics will be totally fine on that route.

I personally like having 2 technical tools on that route, but that's hugely dependent on your ice climbing experience level and route conditions.

Agree with all the above.  Like SinRopa,  I’ve used a SumTec and Cobra and find it a great combo.   Similar to pairing the SumTec with anything suggested above.   You already own a good combo, so the rest here is splitting hairs for specific routes maybe.  

If you do go the North Machine route, you can address Karl’s concern with adding a “finger trigger” from Grivel (Pretty sure they’re still available) can trim it and place it wherever and in whatever orientation you prefer.

I like it specifically for an index finger rest as I find I get less pumped and it staves off “stupid arm” placements by allowing a more precise placement when hand/forearms are burning.  
— and this would only apply when pushing something like a north machine or more alpine tool beyond it’s sweet spot of “intended” use.  Can just pop them off if not needed. 

Funny, I had a pair of those Grivel triggers on my North Machines, and I stripped them off after a season because I thought they were unnecessary and prefer the simpler/lighter tools.  Great example of how all of this advice comes with a big grain of salt due to personal preference, OP might love them, I thought they were useless.

Maybe only Karl might like them.  I like them on steeper 4+ and higher ice where matches and pump may actually be in play.  I wouldn’t use them for alpine 4- and below as they would just be an extra snag source and extra weight.  

Agree that this is personal tuning preferences for specific cases.

And I almost never use them now as I use either new Cobras or Nomics...or SumTecs

to Kyle:  just curious if you had them on your NMs as an index finger trigger or Higher up for a Match rest.  I’ve never felt the match rest necessary, but absolutely loved the triggers on my Top Machines for index finger.  They came that way.  Most comfortable, least pumpy and precise grip I’ve found.  If you haven’t tried it that way, I’d say it’s worth a spin on steep to overhanging routes.  To each his own. 

Thanks everyone for your advice. I decided to do the fourth option I mentioned somewhere in the messages: Sell the sum'tec and get an ultralight axe that I can use on summer alpine rock routes, and I used the money to help fund a pair of NMs, which were actually not bad with the AAC discount. This way, I have no excuse to leave my axe behind when I may or may not need it, and also use it for basic glacier routes, while having the NMs as a pair for easier ice climbs and alpine ice routes.

I wouldn’t bother adding a trigger or upper pommel.  I tried adding a Petzl trigrest and did not have a favorable experience.  

The issue I mentioned earlier is in regards to hooking on vertical-overhanging rock or very thin ice.  The pick shift can be significant when you move your hand above the “nipple”.  If you want to minimize pick shift, when matching hands, I suggest using the nipple as a index finger rest, with the other fingers placed below the nipple.  To do this, I need to peel back the index finger of my lower hand to make room for the upper hand.  

Has anyone self arrested with a North Machine or similar tool?

Doug Hutchinson wrote:

Is it just me, or is the Gully pick not manufactured to take a pick weight? I did put a massolette on my Gully, but the pick did not have the little hole for the protrusion on the weight So the weight is just kind of compressed on the pick, but not in a specific location. I have not used them with a weight yet but I assume the weight will get pushed around a little bit and harder ice since it's only positioned by the one small bolt.

It definitely works. The thing that sucks about those weights is the bolt that holds them on. Don’t tighten too much! When I sold my gully, the guy really wanted those weights off. I had to drill them off. Had a hell of a time getting them off quarks too after I over tightened.