Knot for Third Hand

The standard is a double fisherman’s bend. But why not a flat overhand bend? Dressed and stressed with enough tail, it’s much less bulky than a double fisherman’s.

You use it to tie your rappel strands together, maybe even your cordelette, why not your friction hitch backup cord?

Think about the force that the rope-joining knot undergoes during a double-rope rappel; as compared to the knot in the friction hitch cord. Is there really enough force placed on the hitch cord for rolling/capsizing to be a concern in this application?

What role does the rappel device play in minimizing forces on the friction hitch cord?

Is the friction hitch cord really holding your body weight, or just holding the rope in the brake position within your rappel device?

It may not be an issue as a rappel backup... but what about when ascending, hauling, and partner rescue?

I think the reason if I’m not mistaken is you have no reason to untie your third hand so there’s no added benefit of an EDK. Double fisherman’s is a tie it and forget about it kind of know, also needs less tail than an EDK to less faff on you. I can’t think of any reason other than that not to use it besides the fact that you’d want to inspect it every time you use it to make sure it didn’t jiggle loose, that issue isn’t present with double fisherman’s.

Rolling isn’t really a concern in either of the applications, just slightly more prevalent in the rope joining and if your third hand becomes loose when it’s on your harness during climbing or sitting in your bag.

The friction hitch can hold your body weight but when set up as a third hand it’s just holding the break as your other two hands do.

When ascending there’s a lot more moving and chance to wiggle your edk loose.

Summary: you get no advantage from using an edk over double fish on your prussik cord so just don’t. 

It is less bulky, racks easier and smaller, and gets in the way significantly less when wrapping hitches.

A lot of this added usability has to do with the fact that the standing ends meet the knot at the center of the knot; and the general size of the knot is smaller.

I wouldn’t use an EDK, but I would be interested in the pros and cons of a Flemish bend or overhand bend (not sure of the technical name for this). I agree that a Flemish bend or single overhand followed through would be less bulky, and similar to the double fisherman, tend to weld solid after some use. 

Demetri V wrote:

It is less bulky, racks easier and smaller, and gets in the way significantly less when wrapping hitches.

...

I assume you’re talking about the double fisherman’s here? I’ve never had any issue wrapping hitches and the knot getting in the way. Maybe try orienting the knot in a different spot of your cord. I disagree that it is “less bulky, racks easier and smaller” because both are very small when tied with 6mm cord. The difference is going to be slim to none when you factor in the larger tail for the edk. I would actually argue the edk would get more in the way both when tying and racking due to the tail. At the end of the day I’d prefer my knot to be welded than easy to untie because you don’t have any need to untie the knot. Therefore the only benefit of having the edk is lost. It also introduces the new issue of having a lose knot and you having another thing to check before rapping which is also where the most mistakes occur when climbing.

All knots in 5mm cord. Flemish bend looks like a step in the wrong direction, but the overhand version actually seems like a good option as well. I know that’s a water knot when tied in webbing, but I’m not sure if it has another name when tied in cord.

Again, the major benefit seems to be having the standing ends closer to the center of the knot, and a smaller/narrower knot. Ease of untying or welding shouldn’t really be a part of this conversation. The flat overhands in my cordelettes haven’t moved in a year.

The water knot in cord does look pretty good, obviously you can trim the tails if you’d like.

The only reason I mention welding is because you obviously don’t want the knot to untie, therefore welding is good. I know Flemish bends weld reasonable well, and water knots can in webbing, but how they fare in cord I don’t know.

The other potential advantage I see in the cord water knot is that it uses less cord than the double fisherman’s. If you have lots of cord available it doesn’t matter, but if you have precut lengths maybe the cord water knot is a better option. 

It's a good question. Is the bulkiness of the fisherman's a feature rather than a bug if you end up using it as an emergency ascender? More to yard/hold a boot. But that is the secondary function, and you'll prolly use that one for the harness anyway. 

Everyone is 100% sure this isn't a question of the knot capsizing off the end of those tails?

Demetri V wrote:

It is less bulky, racks easier and smaller, and gets in the way significantly less when wrapping hitches.

The overhand is fine, some Europeans use it. But unless there is a clear safety concern with double fisherman's to tie a loop of cord, you're just trying to change personal preference, which is futile. Less bulk, easier to rack, doesn't get in the way, etc. all these are just a question of convenience and none have been an issue for me (probably for others as well) over the years.

...just spend 15 bucks or whatever on a Hollow Block. With that said double fisherman’s. 

All my prussic loops are EDK. That’s what the owner of my local gym told me to do, and I like it more than the double fisherman’s. So the EDK is what I roll with.

Honestly, you can’t go wrong. You need to glance at all your equipment before you trust your life to it. “Tie the double fisherman’s and forget about it” doesn’t inspire confidence with me.

Zeppelin Bend.  Compact, strong, stable under cyclic loading, and unties easily after loading.  The best knot if you're going to mostly leave it in but might sometimes want to untie.  I say this because tying is a bit tricky and maybe not a good idea to do it under stress "in the field."

I’ve been using a flat overhand on my prusik loop for at least 15 years.  I’ve never really understood why people use the fisherman’s.  Seems bulky, hard to untie and hard to adjust the loops length. 

I also don’t understand why people love the sterling hollow block so much for a third hand.  I understand it’s benefits in a professional rescue operation but not for rock climbing.  But that is a whole different topic. 

Mikey Schaefer wrote:

I also don’t understand why people love the sterling hollow block so much for a third hand.  I understand it’s benefits in a professional rescue operation but not for rock climbing.  But that is a whole different topic. 

Yeah me neither.  In my experience cord grips better, and I certainly don't rap fast enough to burn it.

rgold wrote:

Zeppelin Bend.  Compact, strong, stable under cyclic loading, and unties easily after loading.  The best knot if you're going to mostly leave it in but might sometimes want to untie.  I say this because tying is a bit tricky and maybe not a good idea to do it under stress "in the field."

Never thought I would see the Zeppelin Bend in climbing! My favorite bend simply because of the name (I actually bought a violin bow and used it, ha!) and because it looks quite cool.

Rich, when I’ve tied it myself, I notice that it doesn’t seem to cinch tight very easily. I’ve never done it with a smaller diameter cord, do you think that’s why? I really liked how compact and aesthetic it was, but was curious about whether or not it would slip or loosen. Seems like you use it, so how do you make it stable immediately after tying? Thanks!

Demetri V wrote:

the overhand version actually seems like a good option as well. I know that’s a water knot when tied in webbing, but I’m not sure if it has another name when tied in cord.

Isn't it called a "Ring Bend"?

I have never observed an EDK in cord roll under actual use. As a quick informal test, I tried to get one to roll (tied in 7mm cord) while bouncing on it on my pull up bar. I could only get the EDK to roll when it was left completely loose and undressed. Even then, it only rolled once, tightened up, and stopped. Obviously, during a rappel it could see higher forces.

That said, I would like to see an actual pull test of properly-dressed EDKs tied in 5mm or 6mm nylon accessory cord. It would be nice to have actual numbers for when an EDK could be expected to roll.

Ranger Rick wrote:

I think the reason if I’m not mistaken is you have no reason to untie your third hand so there’s no added benefit of an EDK.

I prefer to rack mine untied, girth-hitched on my chalk bag belt. Free strands are less likely to snag on something while climbing than a loop. I tie them with an EDK to whatever length I need.

Interesting question. To me, it seems a bit like an over-optimization. I'm pretty sure my climbing has never been limited in a significant way by the bulk of the knows on my prussik, or by the slight extra amount of cord I need to tie it vs alternatives, etc. Fisherman is a know tie & forget, which suits me fine for a prussic/third hand. I've got many other things to optimize for before I get to that in the list....

Doctor Drake wrote:

Never thought I would see the Zeppelin Bend in climbing! My favorite bend simply because of the name (I actually bought a violin bow and used it, ha!) and because it looks quite cool.

Rich, when I’ve tied it myself, I notice that it doesn’t seem to cinch tight very easily. I’ve never done it with a smaller diameter cord, do you think that’s why? I really liked how compact and aesthetic it was, but was curious about whether or not it would slip or loosen. Seems like you use it, so how do you make it stable immediately after tying? Thanks!

DD, I've only used it in small diameter cord like the one pictured (can't think of a good reason for it anywhere else, so I don't know whether it loosens in larger diameters.  If it did in general, there'd be some runaway dirigibles, but maybe dynamic kernmantle isn't hospitable.  I'll try it out with climbing ropes (at home safe) to understand better what you're seeing.

rgold wrote:

DD, I've only used it in small diameter cord like the one pictured (can't think of a good reason for it anywhere else, so I don't know whether it loosens in larger diameters.  If it did in general, there'd be some runaway dirigibles, but maybe dynamic kernmantle isn't hospitable.  I'll try it out with climbing ropes (at home safe) to understand better what you're seeing.

Awesome, I'll try and find some spare smaller cord and try it for myself. Maybe I was just bad (likely).

I’ll likely try the EDK, but as mentioned having to check it for looseness and longer tails seem to outweigh the benefits. Maybe I’ll use both knots for different applications. A couple times (in hundreds of uses)  I’ve had a tail of a double fishermans interfere with the hitch (probably just not being careful when setting it up), in applications with a compact friction hitch (the biner close to the hitch), so it seems like the longer tail could be even worse. My cord slings for friction hitches are also sometimes used to extend pieces and I trust double fisherman’s more for those applications. For anchors around trees, etc. the edk would be so much easier to untie.