A safety consideration against TR through mussy hooks

We've seen the "don't put unnecessary wear on fixed hardware" vs "go ahead if the route developer approves" debate. Here is another angle.

1) Many have reported twisted ropes unclipping themselves from unlocked carabiners
2) Mussy hooks are usually installed both facing the same way
3) (speculation) Undetectable twists in 20m of climber side rope tighten as the TR climber approaches the anchor

The other day, as I weighted the rope to be lowered, one of the climber-side rope twists worked its way up to the anchor and unclipped the rope from a hook. I'm glad the other hook stayed clipped, but I'm not sure that's guaranteed given (2).

I believe TR makes this more likely due to (3) - in other scenarios twists would stay distributed over the rope's entire length and be less likely to cause problems.

Maybe the combination of factors needed for this to happen is rare enough to write off as "shit happens, climbing is dangerous". I decided to write this because the problem affects a practice we normally think of as making climbing safer - namely, avoiding anchor cleaning using hardware thoughtfully installed and advertised to eliminate the need for anchor cleaning. My luck suggests otherwise - despite having only TR'd through hooks a few times, I feel I came closer to dying this way than I ever had in all the (more numerous) times I did it the old fashioned way with anchor cleaning.

(and I guess kudos to those who install mussy hooks with swivels so people have the option of clipping them opposed ?)

Serge S wrote:

We've seen the "don't put unnecessary wear on fixed hardware" vs "go ahead if the route developer approves" debate. Here is another angle.

1) Many have reported twisted ropes unclipping themselves from unlocked carabiners
2) Mussy hooks are usually installed both facing the same way
3) Undetectable twists in 20m of climber side rope tighten as the TR climber approaches the anchor

The other day, as I weighted the rope to be lowered, one of the climber-side rope twists worked its way up to the anchor and unclipped the rope from a hook. I'm glad the other hook stayed clipped, but I'm not sure that's guaranteed given (2).

I believe TR makes this more likely due to (3) - in other scenarios twists would stay distributed over the rope's entire length and be less likely to cause problems.

Maybe the combination of factors needed for this to happen is rare enough to write off as "shit happens, climbing is dangerous". I decided to write this because the problem affects a practice we normally think of as making climbing safer - namely, avoiding anchor cleaning using hardware thoughtfully installed and advertised to eliminate the need for anchor cleaning. My luck suggests otherwise - despite having only TR'd through hooks a few times, I feel I came closer to dying this way than I ever had in all the (more numerous) times I did it the old fashioned way with anchor cleaning.

(and I guess kudos to those who install mussy hooks with swivels so people have the option of clipping them opposed ?)

My understanding of mussey hooks is that they make cleaning and lowering easier. I haven’t heard of people installing them as a top rope anchor. For top roping, it’s best to use your own gear and biners. 

Serge S wrote:

one of the climber-side rope twists worked its way up to the anchor and unclipped the rope from a hook.

If you have rope twists that are so large they can unclip the rope from a biner you have something else going wrong in your TR/belay setup that is worth figuring out.  This shouldn't be a thing with a properly managed rope and belay.  

Serge S wrote:

We've seen the "don't put unnecessary wear on fixed hardware" vs "go ahead if the route developer approves" debate. Here is another angle.

1) Many have reported twisted ropes unclipping themselves from unlocked carabiners
2) Mussy hooks are usually installed both facing the same way
3) (speculation) Undetectable twists in 20m of climber side rope tighten as the TR climber approaches the anchor

The other day, as I weighted the rope to be lowered, one of the climber-side rope twists worked its way up to the anchor and unclipped the rope from a hook. I'm glad the other hook stayed clipped, but I'm not sure that's guaranteed given (2).

I believe TR makes this more likely due to (3) - in other scenarios twists would stay distributed over the rope's entire length and be less likely to cause problems.

Maybe the combination of factors needed for this to happen is rare enough to write off as "shit happens, climbing is dangerous". I decided to write this because the problem affects a practice we normally think of as making climbing safer - namely, avoiding anchor cleaning using hardware thoughtfully installed and advertised to eliminate the need for anchor cleaning. My luck suggests otherwise - despite having only TR'd through hooks a few times, I feel I came closer to dying this way than I ever had in all the (more numerous) times I did it the old fashioned way with anchor cleaning.

Only lower off the Mussey's - TR through your own gear. That debate about "don't put unnecessary wear on fixed hardware" vs "go ahead if the route developer approves" refers to lowering vs rappelling, NOT TRing.

The way they’re usually fixed (which is best used for lowering, no matter whether the developers care about TR or not) there’s just not enough play from the mussys. Most of the time just hanging from a single quick link. So if somebody’s “crew” is banging out top rope sessions on hooks like that, I’m not surprise the rope would be kinked up six ways of Sunday. 

Marc801 C wrote:

Only lower off the Mussey's - TR through your own gear. That debate about "don't put unnecessary wear on fixed hardware" vs "go ahead if the route developer approves" refers to lowering vs rappelling, NOT TRing.

I think that depends on the area. I've personally put steel up for people to TR on, and I have many friends that have no qualm with people TRing on the steel anchors of their routes, for simplicity sake. Think of it as a progression of the current trend to get people to stop rapping off sport routes and lower off.  One less variable for a mistake when someone is tired, it's dark, etc.

I wouldn't call it a standard, but there's a time and a place that I think it's appropriate and I have no problem doing it.

almostrad wrote:

I think that depends on the area. I've personally put steel up for people to TR on, and I have many friends that have no qualm with people TRing on the steel anchors of their routes, for simplicity sake. Think of it as a progression of the current trend to get people to stop rapping off sport routes and lower off.  One less variable for a mistake when someone is tired, it's dark, etc.

I wouldn't call it a standard, but there's a time and a place that I think it's appropriate and I have no problem doing it.

Sure. But not Mussey's for the potential problems mentioned by the OP.

almostrad wrote:

I think that depends on the area. I've personally put steel up for people to TR on, and I have many friends that have no qualm with people TRing on the steel anchors of their routes, for simplicity sake. Think of it as a progression of the current trend to get people to stop rapping off sport routes and lower off.  One less variable for a mistake when someone is tired, it's dark, etc.

I wouldn't call it a standard, but there's a time and a place that I think it's appropriate and I have no problem doing it.

Eh, there is a difference between lowering off and top-roping.  The move to have mussy hooks/changeable biners up top is to negate some of the mistakes you mention post.  But If your group is banging out TR's on a route, it is much better to put your own set-up + lockers up there for other reasons.  It is not just about the wear, but also the fact that you do not have eyes on the anchors at all times.  If you are too tired to move your rope onto the mussy hooks when you clean your set-up at the end of a TR session, then that is a problem and you should just leave your anchor so that I can have it :)

If the anchors are equipped with locking steelies and the area leans that way, then TR away!  

Side note....

Even if TR'ing on fixed gear is the norm in your area, you should try to use your own gear as much as possible.  And/or buy a couple of steel biners and carry them with you to swap old hardware when it gets grooved.  

Marc801 C wrote:

Sure. But not Mussey's for the potential problems mentioned by the OP.

Yeah, I'm with Mikey on that one though. The musseys probably aren't the biggest concern at that point.

E M wrote:

Eh, there is a difference between lowering off and top-roping.  The move to have mussy hooks/changeable biners up top is to negate some of the mistakes you mention post.  But If your group is banging out TR's on a route, it is much better to put your own set-up + lockers up there for other reasons.  It is not just about the wear, but also the fact that you do not have eyes on the anchors at all times.  If you are too tired to move your rope onto the mussy hooks when you clean your set-up at the end of a TR session, then that is a problem and you should just leave your anchor so that I can have it :)

If the anchors are equipped with locking steelies and the area leans that way, then TR away!  

Side note....

Even if TR'ing on fixed gear is the norm in your area, you should try to use your own gear as much as possible.  And/or buy a couple of steel biners and carry them with you to swap old hardware when it gets grooved.  

Do you TR on 2 draws often? I see some similarities there, and that's generally an accepted practice on bolted anchors. I'm by no means promoting to spend a full day with the crew top roping on fixed gear, but I see a lot of people out climbing work way harder than they need to to set up an anchor to save wear on a set of steel (or even aluminum) biners, that are cheap and easy to replace.  I keep a few laying in my pack most of the time for that very reason. 

Honestly, I don't have much of a dog in this fight other than, there is a time and place where I think it's totally fine to run a couple laps on a fixed anchor, and the dogma of "never run your rope through the anchor" seems a bit excessive at the local crags I see people climbing at.  There is a classic near me with a hanging belay of 2 chains at the top of a route, and the chains hang off to your right, pretty high above the last reasonable gear. I got sick of seeing people lean over to clip draws, and aluminum lockers come and go over the years, so I threw some steel biners on there, and advocated on the route page to TR on them. They in great shape 3 years later, and it's far easier to clip the two and call it good, than watch people pull 35m of rope through chain links, or have to go direct so they can clean their anchor they had to sub in. To each their own and all that, just thought I'd share where I'm coming from.

almostrad wrote:

Do you TR on 2 draws often?

I hardly top-rope, but I have no problem with a partner doing a lap on fixed gear when I do.  I am usually moving quickly, so it beats setting something up in that particular case.  Like I said earlier, I do not see that as a problem.  I enjoy swapping out old biners when I can to mitigate wear/pitch in.

This is more about setting up a TR for multiple climbers, and/or less experienced climbers that do not have great rope management.  I have seen inexperienced climbers grabbing a jug on TR and flipping the rope hard to free it from an overhang/ledge/bush.  It is easy to rake that over some mussy gates and unclip.  If it is a larger group, it is easier to have something bomber up there and forget about it while they go at it.   

Uhhh, the fact that anyone here thinks it's at all ok to toprope directly through any kind of fixed anchor is pretty bad.  Don't.  Just don't.

Quit being a fun ruiner.

Mussy hooks bring joy to many.  

Don’t try to take that away. 

almostrad wrote:

Yeah, I'm with Mikey on that one though. The musseys probably aren't the biggest concern at that point.

I am willing to say, without having looked at the setup, that mussy hooks or any other anchor setup which does not allow the rings/biners the rope is run through to swing freely and/or line up in a parallel fashion is the largest contributor to any rope twist people are getting in any anchor setup.  If the mussy hooks are parallel to one another, the same height relative to the ground, and on the same vertical plane (so one is not set back from the other) they will not cause excessive rope twist, but that situation is less likely than one in which any one of those three things is not the case, or where all three are close to ideal but not quite perfect.  

The anchors which do this the worst, because at minimum they are nearly guaranteed to not be parallel, are the over-sized hangers with the single welded ring attached: if you pull any significant amount of rope through them where the end of the rope being pulled toward the anchor is somehow fixed so it can't twist (like when tied to a harness or run through an ATC) they are absolutely guaranteed to twist your rope to where the whole thing needs to be flaked.  This is so pronounced that I think those anchors are typically put in specifically to encourage people to TR through their own gear and to rap off instead of being lowered.

In any case, the best solution is to put some kind of setup on the mussy hooks/hangers which can twist around so the rope can run through two rings/biners which are ALWAYS the same height, parallel to one another (preferrably butted together), on the same vertical plane, and with either opposing gates or with lockers. Then the rope is highly unlikely to begin twisting up, and if it does twist up it is highly unlikely to unclip itself.

You should never TR through fixed gear. be safe and place your own gear.

Pnelson wrote:

Uhhh, the fact that anyone here thinks it's at all ok to toprope directly through any kind of fixed anchor is pretty bad.  Don't.  Just don't.