giga jul and bulletproof not compatible

i recently bought a giga jul - so far i like it. was using with bd screw gate pear beaner functions as it should . assisted breaking almost fully locks up

purchased a bulletproof beaner to have a the benefit of a slower wearing beaner however the assisted breaking mode no longer properly assists . device basically works as an atc when it is in break assist mode 

not sure if the steel is preventing the rope from biting or the slight out of round shape of the carsbiner does not creat the same friction.

has anyone else experienced this or might have explanation ?

I guess the Edelrid Strike biner is what they recommend for Giga Jul. My friend just got one and said it’s locking up after having problems with the Bulletproof.

I use a DMM Ceros or BD Rocklock with my Mega Juls and they lock well and consistently. They also worked with the Giga Jul when I tested it out.

ya the rock locks work . 

i didn’t realize they actually had recommended a certain carabiner. I reached out to elelrid fb and told them about this ... they asked for a video so i made one and sent it and its been radio silence since

Here's another thread discussing the issue:

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/119451233/question-about-potential-issue-with-megajul-auto-lock

Edelrid got a video of the failure from a guy on that thread too, so they can't be entirely clueless. I really like these devices and want to trust them. When they work, they work, but seems clear that with certain biners and ropes, they don't really work.

Derek Santavenere wrote:

ya the rock locks work . 

i didn’t realize they actually had recommended a certain carabiner. I reached out to elelrid fb and told them about this ... they asked for a video so i made one and sent it and its been radio silence since

Please post the video here.

Sam Cieply wrote:

Here's another thread discussing the issue:

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/119451233/question-about-potential-issue-with-megajul-auto-lock

Edelrid got a video of the failure from a guy on that thread too, so they can't be entirely clueless. I really like these devices and want to trust them. When they work, they work, but seems clear that with certain biners and ropes, they don't really work.

Interesting but the video is of the megajul and the OP having problems with the gigajul.

Mine locks up fine with the bulletproof carabiner.  Sometimes it is terrible feeding rope while belaying.  The keeper cable can interfere with the free flow of the rope especially if the rope is fed through the far slot from the belay hand.

Most (all?) of the devices of this style (pilot, smart, jul, clickup, ...) are somewhat sensitive to the specifics of the carabiner.

It's not just the carabiner, you have to match the carabiner to the rope. I have had good bite with certain carabiners on my 9.8 rope and had the same carabiner barely provide assistance on my friends rope (a 9.2mm!).  That's well within the stated operating range of the device. I had hoped to use the device with an 8.5mm rope in the future so I hope I can find a setup that works for it. 

jeffrey linden - what carabiners are you running on your 9.8 rope vs 9.2 

it still kind of silly to me that running an all edelrid set up belay device, beaner and rope 9.8 dose not function as it should

the people at edelrid are supposed to get back to me after the weekend when the PM is back from vacation. 

which is an oddly candid response or weird stall tactic when i asked again what they thought about the video

climber pat - i tried to post the video but it wasnt working not sure if mp accept url from i cloud, is there a simple solution im missing?

Derek Santavenere wrote:

jeffrey linden - what carabiners are you running on your 9.8 rope vs 9.2 

it still kind of silly to me that running an all edelrid set up belay device, beaner and rope 9.8 dose not function as it should

the people at edelrid are supposed to get back to me after the weekend when the PM is back from vacation. 

which is an oddly candid response or weird stall tactic when i asked again what they thought about the video

climber pat - i tried to post the video but it wasnt working not sure if mp accept url from i cloud, is there a simple solution im missing?

Youtube?

Derek Santavenere wrote:

i recently bought a giga jul - so far i like it. was using with bd screw gate pear beaner functions as it should . assisted breaking almost fully locks up

purchased a bulletproof beaner to have a the benefit of a slower wearing beaner however the assisted breaking mode no longer properly assists . device basically works as an atc when it is in break assist mode 

not sure if the steel is preventing the rope from biting or the slight out of round shape of the carsbiner does not creat the same friction.

has anyone else experienced this or might have explanation ?

Picture at least? I assume you mean the HMS bulletproof and not the D.

here are the videos i sent to edelrid

hms bulletproof screw gate https://youtu.be/mnLsMSSheW0

Ssme test BD rock lock

https://youtu.be/_rmdV-B1zbg

I’ve tried several rope/carabiner options. As Sam mentioned the ‘strike’ carabiner works best for me. The bullet proof did not work well with any of my ropes, in fact it had very little grab above what an generic ATC would give you with some ropes.

I’ve now tried the strike on additional ropes and like mentioned above it’s not consistent.  In my initial tests it worked as expected but as I tried other ropes I found some combinations with the strike also not grab as well as you’d like (note that this wasn't exhaustively tested, just weighting the device at the crag)

Derek Santavenere wrote:

Ssme test BD rock lock

https://youtu.be/_rmdV-B1zbg

Thanks for the videos, I understand.  I will try it with my bulletproof, I don't have a strike but will order one.  The ropes I use are the mammut serenity 8.7mm and a new edelrid swift protect pro 8.6 mm.  I also have something like a 9.6ish mm edelrid.  I have not used my gigajul much.  I mostly use the CT alpine up which does  not slip with the bulletproof on any of the above ropes.

Thanks for the heads up.

I've yet to experience this phenomenon, though I don't use ropes over 9.0, generally. Been using the GigaJul and Bulletproof FG Triple for almost a year now, wouldn't go back (to the pivot, which is a great device). Have used the megajul extensively, have had minor slippage, but nothing that can't be overcome by *barely* holding the brake strand in a downward angle (not even putting force onto it).

today I used a mammut serenity, 8.7. Zero slip, whatsoever. Nada. Zip. Zilch.

Transitioned to a 9.6 that someone else was using, slippage (barely crept through the device if I held the rope up above the device) was eliminated by the exact same method as the megajul, simply holding the brake strand at a downward angle, below the device. Literally using about 4oz of force on the rope. was easily accomplished by holding the rope with two fingers, holding it daintily. Perhaps I have yet to read the manual but does it say "will completely lock you off, 100%, allowing you to go hands free, with any rope management style?" I was not aware of this, and thus I treat it accordingly, as if I should always maintain a minimum input to the brake strand. I don't find this to be problematic, personally. If anyone does, seems the grigri would be a better match for your needs/uses? 

.02 from a true gumby noob.

yes your right the device is considered break assist however with other carabiners as mentioned it will almost totally lock off -

having to keep any amout of constant pressure kind of defeats the purpose in my opinion 

i would recommend you try one of the other carabiner options and see how much better it works and safer it feels .

out of curiosity is your steel plate on your bulletproof scuffed up at all ?  wondering if some wear on the steel plate would creat more bite

it seems like some of the new belay devices have jumped the shark a bit...

Hey everybody,

maybe I can share some insight here from a manufacturer perspective: 

Legally, there are two different belay device categories for recreational climbing a manufacturer can certify it’s individual device for (by the way: such belay devices dont even count officially as ppe and do not have to have any kind of certification, e.g. the Clic-Up):

1. EN 15151-1 Braking devices with manually assisted locking (examples for this kind of devices: Petzl GriGri, Edelrid Eddy, Beal Birdie, Camp Matik,…)
2. EN 15151-2 Manual braking devices (examples for this kind of devices: Figure of eights, Petzl Reverso, Black Diamond ATC, Edelrid Mega Jul, Edelrid Giga Jul, Mammut Smart,…)

There is technically nothing else. There are no official “automatic belay devices” and there are no “Autotuber” (more a European word, I guess). There is Marketing and users are advised to read the manual. This is causing problems since the first “Autotube” was introduced to the market. The fact that the current standard does not live up to the current market situation is known and it is in the revision process.

Only devices according to the EN 15151-1 are tested in a scenario where they actually have to hold a fall. Devices according to the EN 15151-2 are currently not even tested for any kind of braking power! So please have in mind, that the guaranteed braking power of a device like this is a manufacturer's decision only.

Now, looking closer on these devices often labeled as “Autotubes” like the Giga Jul. These devices offer a certain (not guaranteed!) assistance by increasing the braking power of the device. The reason why there can not be really some quantified assistance to be guaranteed, is that it depends on more factors like mainly:

1. The device (Mega Jul, Smart, Ergo, ATC Pilot, …)
2. The rope (Diameter, Sheath structure, Stiffness, etc.)
3. The Carabiner (diameter, profile, etc.)

Furthermore there are also other factors influencing the degree of braking power support like the angle in which the rope enters the device, the weight of the climber and belayer, etc… It gets clear that there are just endless possibilities for gear and scenario combination resulting always in a slightly different assistance-experience and making it impossible to forecast.

So a user always needs to look at his set up of gear and try for him-/herself what suits him best. This is not a "problem" of the Giga Jul this is a "problem" of these kind of devices. The best carabiners for the Giga Jul are described in its manual and are in terms of braking: the Bruce Steel (Sport Climbing) or the HMS Strike (Alpine Climbing). Other carabiners of course work as well, but the experience can be different.

The advantage of these devices is that they assist (in comparison to a normal tuber)! Definitely resulting in more safety for the user. That they are cheap and that they are more versatile (e.g. use of double ropes) then devices according to EN 15151-1.

I hope this clears everything a bit up :)

slim wrote:

it seems like some of the new belay devices have jumped the shark a bit...

Does it seem to anyone else that we the consumers are so thirsty for new stuff to buy to give us something to talk about that manufacturers continue to “innovate” so that there is a constant market of hot new items?

Seems to be a vicious cycle to me.  Maybe if we backed off our voracious appetites for consumption as consumers we might not end up with a market flooded with mediocre over engineered stuff.