Red Rock to begin reservations to better control crowds

Had a very disappointing telephone exchange with Josh Travers at Red Rock Canyon, who is the assistant field manager.  Attempted to file an official complaint and all I really got was a talking to about how I'm an irresponsible recreationalist, and if I was one, I would agree with their decision to implement a timed entry system.  He attempted to compare Red Rock with Yosemite and RMNP, and how their timed entry system has worked wonders.  RRCNC is only comparable to YNP and RMNP in that they are federally protected and managed outdoor spaces.  El Portal and Estes Park are in no way comparable to Las Vegas as a population center in close proximity to a major conservation area/national park.  His justification of the $2 fee fell flat as well.  "You pay for access to the selected parts of these parks", which, of course, is correct.  I buy a National Parks pass and/or a Red Rock Pass every year.  That should be enough to grant me entrance to these places.  They are utilizing Recreation.gov as an IT solution for these reservations, which costs them money, and instead of absorbing these costs themselves, they are passing them along to us, and attempting to justify it with a nonsensical argument.  I attempted to warn him about the overflow that will occur at the already zoo-like Calico Basin, Middle Oak Creek canyon pullout, South Oak Creek Canyon pullout, First Creek Canyon pullout, and Late Night Trailhead, to which his response was "responsible recreationalists will see that overcrowding of these areas is not good for Red Rock, and subsequently will respond in kind, and if they dont, we will be forced to implement other management plans."  Does he not see that he is forcing the hand of these visitors who are going to come here anyway?  Please give this fellow a call, if you care to.  Perhaps you might be more successful in expressing your concerns.  7025155370

Joseph Brody wrote:

I just came back from Red Rock.  Entered over and over and crowds were not a problem.  Most of the time the ranger just waived me buy when I flashed my year parks pass.   I did not even see any climbers on a climbs near where I was climbing.  Obviously its still a little warm, but that place was not too busy.  

Actually, I saw another party out this weekend so in my estimation it is already too busy, lol. 

B K, good information there about your conversation with Josh Travers. Thank you. Sounds like the reaction from the BLM has shifted from “we’re from the government, we are here to help” to “you’re not my boss, suck it!”

 It is clear that we need to have more input on how our land is managed. I'm not aware that anyone outside the BLM was consulted. We also need complete transparency regarding this program. The description of new procedures is deficient and leaves many questions unanswered.

 What studies have been done regarding traffic in the Red Rock Loop? How many days per year has the Loop achieved an overcrowded situation necessitating closure? Let’s see the data so that we can all have a voice in the solution.

 How many entrance reservations will be permitted per hour and per day? Who will receive special entrance privileges outside the reservation process? Will commercial vendors such as guide services be given priority treatment?

What if someone has no internet connection? What if someone has no credit card? How do these disenfranchised people get in to Red Rock? 

 Unaccountable bureaucrats, unilaterally making arbitrary, draconian, vaguely worded policies, are the bane of American democracy. Our voices deserve to be heard and our desires need to be carefully considered. The local organizations appear to have been blindsided and they seem dumbstruck. Save Red Rock has said that they were not consulted and yet they seem resigned to the new policy. Southern Nevada Climbers Coalition and Access Fund have been radio-silent as far as I have heard. Who is going to take up this fight?

 Last year, the climber’s late exit policy for Red Rock was changed without any consultation. A free, three hour permit that was obtainable by a quick phone call has been changed to a two hour permit that costs $0.50, requiring an internet connection and a credit card. No one stepped up to the BLM to voice concern as far as I know and now, we seem to be rolling over and playing dead while the BLM steamrolls this new policy into place.

 Our freedom of access to American land is being taken with us without due process.

 If you want to see a complete cluster-fuck, watch what happens on National Public Lands Day, this Saturday, September 26, 2020 when the BLM will grant entrance free of charge - which has been promoted in advance with press releases. Watch how crowded it gets - it can become completely grid-locked on the free entrance days such as these. This will likely be used as further justification to implement the reservation system.

If I worked for the BLM and you came at me with that post, Hegyes, I'd respond in the same way that B K got.

I like what you're aiming at, but something something catch more flies with honey.

Joseph Brody wrote:

I just came back from Red Rock.  Entered over and over and crowds were not a problem.  Most of the time the ranger just waived me buy when I flashed my year parks pass.   I did not even see any climbers on a climbs near where I was climbing.  Obviously its still a little warm, but that place was not too busy.  

I just climbed Crimson Chrysalis and Sour Mash over the past two weekends.  Crimson was empty all day and so was Sour Mash.  There were only 2 other groups in Black Velvet on Sunday climbing DOWT and Epinephrine.  By your logic I guess I could say those routes don't get too busy.

NegativeK wrote:

If I worked for the BLM and you came at me with that post, Hegyes, I'd respond in the same way that B K got.

I like what you're aiming at, but something something catch more flies with honey.

What is this "honey" that you speak of? I offered what I thought might be alternative solutions to this problem, and both folks I spoke with at the BLM had no interest, and instead repeated themselves like robots. As evidenced by the lack of a public comment period, they don't give a shit what we think, and tempting them with "honey" doesn't seem to be the way to go here.

Bryan K wrote:

I just climbed Crimson Chrysalis and Sour Mash over the past two weekends.  Crimson was empty all day and so was Sour Mash.  There were only 2 other groups in Black Velvet on Sunday climbing DOWT and Epinephrine.  By your logic I guess I could say those routes don't get too busy.

I wouldn't know. I never heard of those places.  I'm just surprised about a reservation system after seeing a empty park.  

What time on Oct 6? How are crowds after work?

Joseph Brody wrote:

I wouldn't know. I never heard of those places.  I'm just surprised about a reservation system after seeing a empty park.  

Come on a nice weekend in March or April and you'll see a very different picture.

As soon as these 100F temps stop Rocktober begins.

Bryan K wrote:

Come on a nice weekend in March or April and you'll see a very different picture.

I believe you.  I would rather deal with the heat than the crowds.  

Another update. According to Josh Travers, in another phone call, Friends of Red Rock is fully in support of the times entry system. Very interesting.

b k wrote:

Another update. According to Josh Travers, in another phone call, Friends of Red Rock is fully in support of the times entry system. Very interesting.

Well, they're not exactly a climbers advocacy organization:

https://friendsredrock.org/about/

Our Mission is the preservation, protection and enrichment of Red Rock Canyon National Conservation Area, Las Vegas, NV. Friends members are committed to protecting the environmental integrity of Red Rock Canyon National Conservation Area and helping visitors enjoy their visit responsibly.

Marc801 C wrote:

Well, they're not exactly a climbers advocacy organization:

Not only that, I see that their mailing address is the same as the BLM. That's pretty close proximity for just friends.

Why would Friends of Red Rock Canyon be a climber’s advocacy group? Are any climbers active in the group? Members? Do climbers regularly help out in their volunteer efforts? Do you think the FoRRC is going to protect climbers’ interests because of that sick 12b you just sent?

Friends of Red Rock Canyon is a powerful presence at Red Rock. Probably more because of how much they do to protect the land rather than what their address is. And they really do, do a lot. I'd hate to think what a mess the place would be without them.

I found out FoRRC did not care about climber’s interests in a strange way. Back when I first moved here (2 years ago) I volunteered for a few hours to help FoRRC disguise a ‘social trail’. It wasn’t until the next spring that I discovered that social trail that I helped to abolish was the approach to the Fight Path area. By the way, the climbing ranger was part of that group. I did feel kind of betrayed. Too bad FoRRC and the ranger didn’t work with climbers to maintain and formalize the approach trail which would have been better for the land than climbers just trammeling around trying to find the best way like they are now. Perhaps more open lines of communication would have allowed that to happen.

If climbers want to be viewed more favorably as a user group, bitching at the BLM is not the way to do it. Climbers need to get out there and show that they care for the land beyond what the land can do for us. Any LCO should be about *stewardship* and advocacy, not just advocating for being able to climb as much as one wants. And the stewardship needs to go beyond the climbing areas that only climbers visit.

Any LCO should be about *stewardship* and advocacy, not just advocating for being able to climb as much as one wants. And the stewardship needs to go on beyond climbing areas. Yeah, you might have to pick up after a hiker or two but it really does look good.  While I was picking up at Kraft I got lots of thanks. I made sure to mention that I was doing it a part of a *climber’s* event. Locals might also find themselves picking up after visiting climbers. (or a trad climber might have to pick up after a sport climber - gasp!) I guess that is just the price you pay for living next door to a climbing destination.

Please note the thread asking for climbers to participate in the Facelift-Act Local and pick up a little trash has been met with nothing but crickets (yes, it makes me sad). One of the great things that happened when Ken Yager started the Facelift in Yosemite is the establishment’s view of climbers began to change. They went from being viewed as miscreants to good citizens. In fact, Ken has been described by Tommy Caldwell as “the guy who made rangers like climbers”. That is probably the best way to get your needs as a user group recognized. 

(edited to add: this post isn't directed to anyone in particular, just this thread in general)

(edited again: I'm headed out to First Creek in about 30 minutes (6:15) to pick up some trash. Anyone want to join me? I'll bring an extra trash grabber, bag, and beer just in case. Just promise to stay 6 feet away)

Marc801 C wrote:

Well, they're not exactly a climbers advocacy organization:

https://friendsredrock.org/about/

I never mentioned nor implied that they were. Climbers are not the only group getting screwed here. Most of us who climb also hike, run trails, bike, etc. This is an access issue for all outdoor lovers who enjoy RR.

Valerie A B wrote:

Why would Friends of Red Rock Canyon be a climber’s advocacy group? Are any climbers active in the group? Members? Do climbers regularly help out in their volunteer efforts? Do you think the FoRRC is going to protect climbers’ interests because of that sick 12b you just sent?

Friends of Red Rock Canyon is a powerful presence at Red Rock. Probably more because of how much they do to protect the land rather than what their address is. And they really do, do a lot. I'd hate to think what a mess the place would be without them.

I found out FoRRC did not care about climber’s interests in a strange way. Back when I first moved here (2 years ago) I volunteered for a few hours to help FoRRC disguise a ‘social trail’. It wasn’t until the next spring that I discovered that social trail that I helped to abolish was the approach to the Fight Path area. By the way, the climbing ranger was part of that group. I did feel kind of betrayed. Too bad FoRRC and the ranger didn’t work with climbers to maintain and formalize the approach trail which would have been better for the land than climbers just trammeling around trying to find the best way like they are now. Perhaps more open lines of communication would have allowed that to happen.

If climbers want to be viewed more favorably as a user group, bitching at the BLM is not the way to do it. Climbers need to get out there and show that they care for the land beyond what the land can do for us. Any LCO should be about *stewardship* and advocacy, not just advocating for being able to climb as much as one wants. And the stewardship needs to go beyond the climbing areas that only climbers visit.

Any LCO should be about *stewardship* and advocacy, not just advocating for being able to climb as much as one wants. And the stewardship needs to go on beyond climbing areas. Yeah, you might have to pick up after a hiker or two but it really does look good.  While I was picking up at Kraft I got lots of thanks. I made sure to mention that I was doing it a part of a *climber’s* event. Locals might also find themselves picking up after visiting climbers. (or a trad climber might have to pick up after a sport climber - gasp!) I guess that is just the price you pay for living next door to a climbing destination.

Please note the thread asking for climbers to participate in the Facelift-Act Local and pick up a little trash has been met with nothing but crickets (yes, it makes me sad). One of the great things that happened when Ken Yager started the Facelift in Yosemite is the establishment’s view of climbers began to change. They went from being viewed as miscreants to good citizens. In fact, Ken has been described by Tommy Caldwell as “the guy who made rangers like climbers”. That is probably the best way to get your needs as a user group recognized. 

(edited to add: this post isn't directed to anyone in particular, just this thread in general)

(edited again: I'm headed out to First Creek in about 30 minutes (6:15) to pick up some trash. Anyone want to join me? I'll bring an extra trash grabber, bag, and beer just in case. Just promise to stay 6 feet away)

It sounds like you’re  (maybe not intentionally) downplaying the work the SNCC does ... which includes trail work , trash pickup and graffiti removal (iirc they work together in some capacity with FoRRC for graffiti removal) ...which is the same type of stuff FoRRC does which goes beyond just “advocating for climbing as much as they want” . On top of which they do have a pretty favorable relationship with the BLM in general ... I’d put money on it they don’t view vegas climbers as “miscreants” because we seemingly don’t pick up trash.

Friends of Red rock does a lot of great work ( they really do) but for real the trail erasure you mention isnt the only example of them mucking up trails of their own accord . They did the same thing at the second pullout and ......on the slick rock down below riding hood...which was the dumbest thing ever......I’ve been told it was them that put those stupid rock wire basket pylons or whatever all over the place aswell. 

Nicholas Gillman wrote:

It sounds like you’re  (maybe not intentionally) downplaying the work the SNCC does ... which includes trail work , trash pickup and graffiti removal (iirc they work together in some capacity with FoRRC for graffiti removal) ...which is the same type of stuff FoRRC does which goes beyond just “advocating for climbing as much as they want” . On top of which they do have a pretty favorable relationship with the BLM in general ... I’d put money on it they don’t view vegas climbers as “miscreants” because we seemingly don’t pick up trash.

Maybe I've missed prior memos, but how often does the SNCC have cleanup days?  I think Friends of Red Rock is doing something to better the area weekly...

I mention this to demonstrate what seems obvious to me - we can do better.

Kevin Heckeler wrote:

Maybe I've missed prior memos, but how often does the SNCC have cleanup days?  I think Friends of Red Rock is doing something to better the area weekly...

I mention this to demonstrate what seems obvious to me - we can do better.

Lmao , get outa here with that “how often do they have cleanup days?” and “we can do better”. Please feel free to post up photos from your weekly service projects.

Whenever it’s stewardship or advocacy people  have all the ideas about what and how the SNCC should/could do and then when it’s time to replace the board .... they have to BEG people to join and actually put in the work.

Nicholas Gillman wrote:

Lmao , get outa here with that “how often do they have cleanup days?” and “we can do better”. Please feel free to post up photos from your weekly service projects.

Whenever it’s stewardship or advocacy people  have all the ideas about what and how the SNCC should/could do and then when it’s time to replace the board .... they have to BEG people to join and actually put in the work.

You didn't answer the question... when was the last SNCC cleanup day?  When was the one before that?  [I know right now things are on hold, but we don't have to go back *that* far... do we??] 

What is the SNCC doing to foster community between climbers, and between climbers, other user groups, and the governing agencies?  These events tell non-climbers what climbers are about and gives climbers within the community a greater sense of purpose than pulling hard, taking selfies, and/or being insensitive on an internet forum.  The overall lack of community in Vegas is not a positive, it's something to think about and perhaps address.