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An argument against stick clips

Original Post
Gumby King · · The Gym · Joined Jun 2016 · Points: 52

First, I use my stick clip.  Stick clips save ankles.  Second, I started climbing at the New River Gorge.  Many of the "easier climbs" had the first bolt 10-20' off the deck.  Blowing the second clip could also put you on the ground.  Sometimes, I would clip the second bolt to stay off the ground.

If the bolting was done properly (e.g., appropriately spaced, prevents all ground falls from appropriate belaying/clipping, etc) then stick clips shouldn't be needed.

TLDR: Stick clips are a product of bad bolting.

Short Fall Sean · · Bishop, CA · Joined Sep 2012 · Points: 7

I think this needs to be brushed up a bit before you submit to The Journal of Philosophy. Glad you're seeking peer review on MP first.  

Nate A · · SW WA · Joined Aug 2018 · Points: 0

Lol. I think it’s been almost a month since this argument played itself out on MP.

But... you’re not new here so you know that. Just trolling?

Nick Goldsmith · · NEK · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 460

actually stick clips are a product of good bolting. if you wern't such a gumby you would know this.  If the 1st bolt is low enough to clip easily from close to the ground it only protects for about half a move and then you are right back in ground fall territory and if you blow the 2nd clip you will deck hard.  If the 1st bolt is placed with stick clip in mind it helps make the 2nd clip safer and hopefully allows the 3rd clip to be safe. Always treat the 1st two clips like you would a solo.  

Gumby King · · The Gym · Joined Jun 2016 · Points: 52
Nate A wrote:

But... you’re not new here so you know that.

I'm not sure if I've ever seen a stick click argument related to bolting (If so, it probably just went to just a typical bolting debate and I clocked out).  Specifically, an argument where a stick clip shouldn't be a thing.  Companies are able to capitalize off of this need.  

I've been to some sport crags where the bolting was reasonable and a stick clip not needed.  I'd argue the cost of one stick clip (ignoring the tape/stick ones) could be redistributed to several bolts making the first few moves of a few routes safer.  Of course, make things more spaced as the route gets higher if you're wanting to make it spicy.

Just trolling?

If I were Trolling I would say "No"... but my real answer to your question is Yes and No. 

Not Not MP Admin · · The OASIS · Joined Nov 2018 · Points: 17

how are bolters supposed to afford booze and cigarettes if they bolt “appropriately”?! 

Dustin Helmer · · SLC, UT · Joined Feb 2015 · Points: 32

Bolts should be placed every 2 ft for the first 30 ft, got it.

Glowering · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2011 · Points: 16

Sometimes there’s a bad landing below the first bolt.

Sometimes the climber is older and doesn’t want to risk an ankle injury that may take a long time to heal.

The great thing about stick clips is they’re optional. I’d rather have someone use a stick clip who doesn’t want to risk a ground fall than have 3 closely spaced bolts at the bottom so someone who wants a little spice at the start doesn’t get it.

I always laugh a little at people disparaging stick clips. Pure ego talking. And who cares what style someone else is using.

I also laugh when people say SPORT climbing is supposed to have a certain level of risk.

Dustin Helmer · · SLC, UT · Joined Feb 2015 · Points: 32
Glowering wrote:

...so someone who wants a little spice at the start doesn’t get it.

Lol spice at the start. To each their own I guess.

Petsfed 00 · · Snohomish, WA · Joined Mar 2002 · Points: 989
Gumby King wrote:
If the bolting was done properly (e.g., appropriately spaced, prevents all ground falls from appropriate belaying/clipping, etc) then stick clips shouldn't be needed..

I'm not disagreeing with you, but appropriate spacing is like:

Bolt 1: 8 feet off the deck

Bolt 2: 3 feet above that

Bolt 3:  6 feet above that

Bolt 4: 6-8 feet above that

Know- nothing punters would look at that and say "bro, that's waaaaaaay overbolted! Quit murdering the impossible for weakmos who just need to sack up. If you're so afraid of falling, maybe climbing isn't for you". Then they'd convene a bolt chopping party until their sport climb is adequately wild and bold again.

Stick clips are the necessary evil to silence the (wildly lacking in perspective) environmental arguments, stave off choppers, and still prevent the kinds of injuries that piss off land managers.

Tim Stich · · Colorado Springs, Colorado · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 1,516
Gumby King wrote:


TLDR: Stick clips are a product of bad bolting.

Many routes have the hardest moves right off the deck because of overhangs. So it's not always the bolting. I always use my stick clip now if there is any doubt that I won't make it to the first bolt easily or I know it's tricky. No one wants a broken ankle at my age. That might not just put me out of climbing, but out of hiking for good. Fuck that.

W K · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2018 · Points: 167

Stickclip? Pfffft. There's clearly a red ballnut underneath that loose microflake just below the first bolt. Climbers these days...

Alan Emery · · Lebanon, NH · Joined Aug 2011 · Points: 239
Tim Stich wrote:

Many routes have the hardest moves right off the deck because of overhangs. So it's not always the bolting. I always use my stick clip now if there is any doubt that I won't make it to the first bolt easily or I know it's tricky. No one wants a broken ankle at my age. That might not just put me out of climbing, but out of hiking for good. Fuck that.

I fully agree TIm.  I was in my mid fifties when I broke my ankle from a bad fall and had to have a rod put in place.  Not fun.  Rehab too a full season, and then came the fear of re-injury, so I use a stick clip a lot these days.  

Mark Paulson · · Raleigh, NC · Joined Sep 2010 · Points: 141
Gumby King wrote:

Second, I started climbing at the New River Gorge.  Many of the "easier climbs" had the first bolt 10-20' off the deck.  Blowing the second clip could also put you on the ground.  Sometimes, I would clip the second bolt to stay off the ground.

I find NRG bolting standards to be just about perfect; unforgiving, yet ultimately (for the most part) safe, and rarely cruel. Significant runouts, though common, are almost always at least two number grades or more beneath the route grade. I can't count the number of times I've been on a climb, looked up in horror at the distance to the next bolt, commenced climbing, and, having finally arrived at said bolt thought "actually, that wasn't so bad". Most of the time, you realize you probably wouldn't want it bolted any other way.

Of course, there are many, many climbs there that -require- a stick clip to be done safely, due solely to the nature of the terrain. Though most climbers these days will have a telescoping contraption at the ready, most climbs needing stick clips still have long branches lying somewhere in close proximity. I probably used actual sticks and climbing tape for 10 years before buying an actual stick-clip (which was still just a painter's pole with a spring clamp screwed on the end).

almostrad · · BLC · Joined Jul 2015 · Points: 13

Tl;dr 


climbing is soft these days 

David Deville · · Fayetteville, AR · Joined Oct 2013 · Points: 90
Petsfed 00 wrote:

Bolt 1: 8 feet off the deck

Bolt 2: 3 feet above that

Bolt 3:  6 feet above that

Bolt 4: 6-8 feet above that

I don't usually bring a stick clip climbing because I'm lazy and my painter's pole setup is kinda shitty and heavy. I also don't like feeling bold right off the deck and always hope someone else brought a stick clip. 

But... I still prefer routes bolted with intent for stickclipping since it avoids what Petsfed describes; the kind of bolting required to keep everything super safe without a clip is just absurd and ugly (visually and $$$wise). It's nice to keep the bolts above eye level and tastefully spaced. So what, if you need a stick clip?

Princess Puppy Lovr · · Rent-n, WA · Joined Jun 2018 · Points: 1,756

I feel like every 5.11 and harder on basalt(Vantage, Idaho basalt, Hawaii) is inviting you to climb them with out a stick clip. Decking is only fun when your wife is happy you finished a house project.

Nick Goldsmith · · NEK · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 460

my new stiffy

Pnelson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2015 · Points: 635
Gumby King wrote:

First, I use my stick clip.  Stick clips save ankles.  Second, I started climbing at the New River Gorge.  Many of the "easier climbs" had the first bolt 10-20' off the deck.  Blowing the second clip could also put you on the ground.  Sometimes, I would clip the second bolt to stay off the ground.

If the bolting was done properly (e.g., appropriately spaced, prevents all ground falls from appropriate belaying/clipping, etc) then stick clips shouldn't be needed.

TLDR: Stick clips are a product of bad bolting.

Uhhh, no. Routes that have been bolted with the assumption that a climber will use a stickclip are safer and will have less chance of a groundfall than non-stickclip routes. Duh.

Pepe LePoseur · · Remote Ontario · Joined Jun 2020 · Points: 0

Somewhat off topic, but same logic of spacing applies to ice screws (ice “bolts”) For the most part, don’t bother to place that first one until 20-30 feet.  You’ll just waste time, energy, and momentum trying  “protect” everything lower

Gumby King · · The Gym · Joined Jun 2016 · Points: 52
Pnelson wrote:

Uhhh, no. Routes that have been bolted with the assumption that a climber will use a stickclip are safer and will have less chance of a groundfall than non-stickclip routes. Duh.

Thats a big assumption! Its like assuming a climber will leave two pieces of gear when bailing on a trad route.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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