Climbing Mentorship Offer - BIPOC, underrepresented communities

I'm interested in seeing whether there's anyone out there who might be looking for a climbing mentor as they develop as an outdoor climber. I'm a straight, cis white dude whose mentors have mostly been other straight, cis white dudes, and I'd like to break that cycle.

About me: I'm 27 and have been climbing outdoors for seven years, mostly up and down the East Coast. I'm primarily a trad climber, but I like clipping bolts occasionally. My favorite climbing days are on long moderate routes involving approaches, routefinding, cracks, and great scenery. I also enjoy trail running and cycling. I'm a supporter of the justice movement and recognize that these sports I pursue in my free time are only possible to me because the barriers to entry have been minimal. I am interested in reducing those barriers for someone else through knowledge sharing, if anyone is interested. I've had several jobs teaching climbing skills workshops and leading outdoor courses for universities and facilitating climbing days for camps, but I am a believer in the one-on-one mentorship method more common in the past. 

What I'm proposing: I'd like to help someone from an underrepresented community in climbing (anyone who isn't a straight, cis white dude) develop as a climber in terms of technical skills and outdoor know-how. I am not going to be any help in getting you from 5.10 to 5.11, and I can count on one hand the number of times I've bouldered outside. But if you're at a point where it would be helpful to know how to build and clean anchors, safely set up topropes for friends, navigate crags, or perform some basic self-rescue, then I can be helpful. I think the person who might get the most use out of me has been climbing in the gym for a while, has led a few sport routes indoors or outdoors, and is interested in climbing more outdoors.

Because of the pandemic, I'm imagining this might be a mostly digital relationship for a while. Ideally we could get outside and climb together as well, once that makes sense. I think we could do a fair amount of learning over the web though, and if nothing else it might be helpful to have someone you can text when you encounter an unknown situation.

If you're interested, send me an email with some info about you and your climbing experience at derek.ehrns [at] gmail.com and we can set up a time to zoom and see whether it could be a good fit. I don't have a ton of free time right now, so I probably need to limit this to one or two individuals. Thanks.

can we define underrepresented?  don't want to be exclusionary here, ya know?

I defined it in my post as anyone who isn't a straight, cis white dude. But I'm open to other interpretations and thoughts on the matter.

Straight, CIS, white, but a religious minority?

As a BIPOC woman and therefore a member of the "underrepresented group", my initial reaction to reading this "mentorship offer" was negative, I will have to admit. 

I do want to say that I completely understand your reasoning behind wanting to branch out and include a more diverse group of people in a predominantly white/male sport, and I commend you for that. However, I feel like if I were a fledgling climber who wanted someone to mentor me, and the identity of my mentor was something that was important, I would seek out another BIPOC person as I would be able to relate more to their struggles as a marginalized person in this sport. The reality of YOUR mentor-mentee relationship is that you are offering a situation where you get to place yourself in a position of power over this underrepresented mentee, and that leaves a bad taste in my mouth. 

I do realize though, that your intention comes from a very good place, and you are actively trying to include more underrepresented people into the outdoors and climbing. That's something many people do not even try to do and I absolutely respect your efforts. I do not suggest that you withdraw your offer of mentorship, but I did want to offer my perspective and food for thought.

I want to say that if you're very keen on only mentoring underrepresented people, bring in some underrepresented MENTORS and tag team. I know you said you enjoy one-on-one teaching, but having multiple mentors helping out multiple mentees may 1) free up some of your time and 2) offer wider perspectives in not just climbing but the community around it.

Derek Ehrnschwender wrote:

I'm interested in seeing whether there's anyone out there who might be looking for a climbing mentor as they develop as an outdoor climber. I'm a straight, cis white dude whose mentors have mostly been other straight, cis white dudes, and I'd like to break that cycle.

About me: I'm 27 and have been climbing outdoors for seven years, mostly up and down the East Coast. I'm primarily a trad climber, but I like clipping bolts occasionally. My favorite climbing days are on long moderate routes involving approaches, routefinding, cracks, and great scenery. I also enjoy trail running and cycling. I'm a supporter of the justice movement and recognize that these sports I pursue in my free time are only possible to me because the barriers to entry have been minimal. I am interested in reducing those barriers for someone else through knowledge sharing, if anyone is interested. I've had several jobs teaching climbing skills workshops and leading outdoor courses for universities and facilitating climbing days for camps, but I am a believer in the one-on-one mentorship method more common in the past. 

What I'm proposing: I'd like to help someone from an underrepresented community in climbing (anyone who isn't a straight, cis white dude) develop as a climber in terms of technical skills and outdoor know-how. I am not going to be any help in getting you from 5.10 to 5.11, and I can count on one hand the number of times I've bouldered outside. But if you're at a point where it would be helpful to know how to build and clean anchors, safely set up topropes for friends, navigate crags, or perform some basic self-rescue, then I can be helpful. I think the person who might get the most use out of me has been climbing in the gym for a while, has led a few sport routes indoors or outdoors, and is interested in climbing more outdoors.

Because of the pandemic, I'm imagining this might be a mostly digital relationship for a while. Ideally we could get outside and climb together as well, once that makes sense. I think we could do a fair amount of learning over the web though, and if nothing else it might be helpful to have someone you can text when you encounter an unknown situation.

If you're interested, send me an email with some info about you and your climbing experience at derek.ehrns [at] gmail.com and we can set up a time to zoom and see whether it could be a good fit. I don't have a ton of free time right now, so I probably need to limit this to one or two individuals. Thanks.

• I appreciate your willingness to sacrifice your time and energy, share your love of climbing, and give others opportunities. The longer I climb, I feel the less I am actively trying to mentor or expose people to the sport.  I’m confused how your offer could be perceived as negative, and think it is a wild leap of logic to think you would abuse the power you had over a mentee. 

Ry C wrote:

The reality of YOUR mentor-mentee relationship is that you are offering a situation where you get to place yourself in a position of power over this underrepresented mentee, and that leaves a bad taste in my mouth. 

I'm confused by the interpretation of "position of power" in this scenario.  ALL mentor relationships, by implication and design for the benefit of the mentee, is based on one person trusting the advice of the other.  To suggest that someone knowing more than the other creates this "position of power" is a sick interpretation of what we call "giving".  Based on this logic, we should report all charity, teachers, trainers, and guides to the authorities as potential atrocities? 

The bad taste in your mouth was likely there long before you read this thread.

An offer of mentorship to someone who identifies with an underrepresented community is a good first step. But as you yourself said, it seems like all mentors are cis white males. Breaking down those barriers to participation ultimately requires representation on both the participant and mentor level.

There are a number of BIPOC-led organizations doing good work on this front, for example Climbers of Color based in Seattle. I know it's a long ways from the Northeast, but an example of what you could do is to take the money you would have spent on food and gas taking a mentee out and donate that amount to the Climbers of Color scholarship fund. Or find an organization locally to you that's working to break down those barriers and support them.

For what it's worth I'm Chinese-American, but pretty white-passing. As a kid, I probably would have jumped on this offer because I just wanted to climb. Now as an adult, I have a more nuanced view and would probably be a little wary if I were looking for a mentor as a recreational climber. I still remember having an "aha" moment when I saw a photo of David Lama climbing on Cerro Torre as it was one of the early times I saw someone who looked like me highlighted in a publication, rather than in a background or supporting role.

All that to say, I don't think what you're offering is wrong. I do think there are ways you could make it more impactful.

Ry C wrote:

As a BIPOC woman and therefore a member of the "underrepresented group", my initial reaction to reading this "mentorship offer" was negative, I will have to admit. 

I do want to say that I completely understand your reasoning behind wanting to branch out and include a more diverse group of people in a predominantly white/male sport, and I commend you for that. However, I feel like if I were a fledgling climber who wanted someone to mentor me, and the identity of my mentor was something that was important, I would seek out another BIPOC person as I would be able to relate more to their struggles as a marginalized person in this sport. The reality of YOUR mentor-mentee relationship is that you are offering a situation where you get to place yourself in a position of power over this underrepresented mentee, and that leaves a bad taste in my mouth. 

I do realize though, that your intention comes from a very good place, and you are actively trying to include more underrepresented people into the outdoors and climbing. That's something many people do not even try to do and I absolutely respect your efforts. I do not suggest that you withdraw your offer of mentorship, but I did want to offer my perspective and food for thought.

I want to say that if you're very keen on only mentoring underrepresented people, bring in some underrepresented MENTORS and tag team. I know you said you enjoy one-on-one teaching, but having multiple mentors helping out multiple mentees may 1) free up some of your time and 2) offer wider perspectives in not just climbing but the community around it.

Thanks for your thoughts Amy. I hear you on the kind of icky power dynamic that mentorship like this could create, and it totally makes sense that BIPOC people might prefer to have a BIPOC mentor.

I like the idea of tag teaming with other mentors, and if anyone reading this feels that they might be a good addition, feel free to reach out and maybe we can coordinate. It would be cool to start an informal digital climbing school with lots of teachers and students from all backgrounds, but I don't think it would be my place to take the lead on that kind of thing if it was focused toward underrepresented communities. My thinking with this offer was just that if someone is stoked on climbing and they want to talk through cleaning anchors or logistics for their first trip to Rumney, and they're comfortable zooming or texting random internet white guy, then I can probably help. This seems like a way I can maybe make an immediate difference in a space close to me.

Matt Z wrote:

An offer of mentorship to someone who identifies with an underrepresented community is a good first step. But as you yourself said, it seems like all mentors are cis white males. Breaking down those barriers to participation ultimately requires representation on both the participant and mentor level.

The spirit here is to get more "underrepresented" people skilled so they can pass it on.  I'd consider this an all-hands-on-deck situation. Choosing to discredit the mentor-ship because of the color of the mentor's skin isn't productive, either.

There's no easy way to homogenize the climbing community, but certainly we can all agree that we need more of this thread in the climbing world(??).

Another (newer) organization as a potential resource:

https://climbing4change.org/

Ry C wrote:

As a BIPOC woman and therefore a member of the "underrepresented group", my initial reaction to reading this "mentorship offer" was negative, I will have to admit. 

I do want to say that I completely understand your reasoning behind wanting to branch out and include a more diverse group of people in a predominantly white/male sport, and I commend you for that. However, I feel like if I were a fledgling climber who wanted someone to mentor me, and the identity of my mentor was something that was important, I would seek out another BIPOC person as I would be able to relate more to their struggles as a marginalized person in this sport. The reality of YOUR mentor-mentee relationship is that you are offering a situation where you get to place yourself in a position of power over this underrepresented mentee, and that leaves a bad taste in my mouth. 

I do realize though, that your intention comes from a very good place, and you are actively trying to include more underrepresented people into the outdoors and climbing. That's something many people do not even try to do and I absolutely respect your efforts. I do not suggest that you withdraw your offer of mentorship, but I did want to offer my perspective and food for thought.

I want to say that if you're very keen on only mentoring underrepresented people, bring in some underrepresented MENTORS and tag team. I know you said you enjoy one-on-one teaching, but having multiple mentors helping out multiple mentees may 1) free up some of your time and 2) offer wider perspectives in not just climbing but the community around it.

Some people just cannot accept a good faith offer and leave it be, instead they have to correct and put their own spin on everything. You are one of those people. Think twice before you shoot down a honest awesome offer to extend help to a community.

There's a lot of material in the 'References' section that might help you understand why this approach may not be the best way to harness your cis, white privilege to help BIPOC/people in underrepresented communities: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White…

Slambo G wrote:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_savior

mentors are hard to come by. i imagine they’d be harder to find for someone that didn’t think they fit in. i don’t understand the people here attacking this guy for trying to lend a hand to someone who might not get it otherwise. 

petzl logic wrote:

mentors are hard to come by. i imagine they’d be harder to find for someone that didn’t think they fit in. i don’t understand the people here attacking this guy for trying to lend a hand to someone who might not get it otherwise. 

Not attacking OP; just trying to provide more context as to why some BIPOC would not feel comfortable with his approach. 

Slambo G wrote:

Not attacking OP; just trying to provide more context as to why some BIPOC would not feel comfortable with his approach. 

Someone who isn't a climber isn't going to learn from others who also don't know.  White males/females are still the largest climber user group.  As a member of that demographic, I see it as my duty to make the activity as inclusive as possible.  If someone doesn't want to learn from me because of the color of my skin or gender, I'll happily explain the hypocrisy in taking that position.  I suspect, though, that only radicals and racists (racists come in all colors) are making this distinction.  It's purely academic.  People who want to climb and learn to climb don't care with whom they learn and participate.  This thread is about opening a door to the underrepresented, not fixing centuries of oppression.

Kevin Heckeler wrote:

I'm confused by the interpretation of "position of power" in this scenario.  ALL mentor relationships, by implication and design for the benefit of the mentee, is based on one person trusting the advice of the other.  To suggest that someone knowing more than the other creates this "position of power" is a sick interpretation of what we call "giving".  Based on this logic, we should report all charity, teachers, trainers, and guides to the authorities as potential atrocities? 

The bad taste in your mouth was likely there long before you read this thread.

There will always be an implicit power dynamic between one person who is more knowledgeable about something and one that is not in a teaching-based relationship. Yes. Your quote on “teachers, trainers, guides etc.” being in positions of power is exactly what I mean. I know this primarily because I AM a teacher/professor/mentor and we are specifically TOLD AND TRAINED that we have a position of power over our students and need to keep that in mind. There is trust and dependence involved in learning, and sometimes that trust can be abused without the mentee knowing. How is that not a power dynamic? If done with good intentions, it’s a beautiful relationship of “giving” yes, that’s why I am a professor/mentor. If done with bad intentions, that is atrocious abuse. Regardless, the dynamic is there and something to simply keep in mind.

Specifically, in this case, climbing is also a literal life-dependence situation where knowledge really is power.  

Do I think Derek is going to abuse his mentees? Absolutely fucking not, as I said, I think it’s great that he’s actively being inclusive within his own community and he seems like an incredible human being. But I think multiple perspectives, especially those from BIPOC, on these kinds of things are always beneficial. I don’t appreciate how people are trying to silence me either, as this is one of the major issues BIPOC people have. :)

Derek, if anyone takes you up on your offer, I'm willing to help.

I'm Asian American. When I started climbing, I had three mentors: one was Asian American, the other two were a white American dude and a white Australian dude. In the years since I learned how to climb from them, I've always tried to pay it forward and teach others who wants to learn. Consciously and subconsciously, I try especially hard to help other Asian Americans, either at the crag or on the forum (based on their user name). But I'm willing to mentor anyone if they have a desire to learn.

My only hesitation is with a virtual format. I've mentored a few climbers in real life, and I think that's the best way to learn. Climbing is such a hands on activity, I'd be a little wary of teaching someone how to clean an anchor over Zoom (for example) and just send them out into the wild and do it on their own.

Kevin Heckeler wrote:

 I see it as my duty to make the activity as inclusive as possible.  If someone doesn't want to learn from me because of the color of my skin or gender, I'll happily explain the hypocrisy in taking that position.  I suspect, though, that only radicals and racists (racists come in all colors) are making this distinction.  It's purely academic.  People who want to climb and learn to climb don't care with whom they learn and participate.  

You sound like a joy. Have you had much success explaining power dynamics to BIPOC or female climbers?

Derek, good on you for making an effort and also being receptive to feedback. I'd also encourage you to be a voice for supporting and donating to BIPOC climbing organizations among your friends and peers.

I guess that all being said, Derek, if you want help, I can definitely help out as well. I’m also in the New England area (Massachusetts).

This is your thing and you should take the lead on it as your contribution to the community, but if you take it outside, I can be a second pair of eyes to check your mentee’s belaying/anchors/whatever to make sure that YOU don’t die by their mistake lmao. 

Amy C, I appreciate you speaking up about how this offer might be received by BIPoC. Statistically speaking, most of us white folks do not have many BIPoC in our inner social circles, and even fewer who would be happy to talk honestly with us about things like this, so it's a perspective many of us are lacking.

Big sigh at all the defensive (presumably) white guys who want to tell Amy how she should or shouldn't react, or what is or isn't racist, or to express their befuddlement at how the OP's offer could possibly be off-putting. Just listen, guys. You'll hear these things more often if you don't react this way.

Derek, I love that you're taking Amy's suggestion to heart and wish you luck. I think it's super cool that Amy and aikibujin have offered to help out.

+1 also to Matt Z's suggestion to donate to BIPoC-led climbing organizations and BigRed11's suggestion to talk up support for these orgs in your circles.

One other thing you might consider when you put your offer out there is how you frame things both to yourself and others. Speaking as a woman, "I'd like to help someone from an underrepresented community" is not a great lead-in. That makes it sound like you view non-cis-het-white-dudes as charity cases. Maybe just specify in your mentorship offer that you are LGBTQ-friendly and BIPoC-friendly and happy to provide references (which is important for your potential mentees in screening out people who might want to do harm). Then select a mentee who isn't a typical cis het white dude, if any such folks express interest. 

Kevin Heckeler wrote:

I'm confused by the interpretation of "position of power" in this scenario.  ALL mentor relationships, by implication and design for the benefit of the mentee, is based on one person trusting the advice of the other.  To suggest that someone knowing more than the other creates this "position of power" is a sick interpretation of what we call "giving".  Based on this logic, we should report all charity, teachers, trainers, and guides to the authorities as potential atrocities? 

The bad taste in your mouth was likely there long before you read this thread.

Thank u for restoring my faith in MP