Global Standardization of Difficulty Grading Systems

Also, grades should be described in Esperanto.

Brent Kelly wrote:

Side note about this chart: the french bouldering system is presented wrong. The letter is always an uppercase letter (for ex: 6C+), not to confuse it with the lowercase sport climbing grades (6c+, for ex)

Brent Kelly wrote:

I hear you and generally agree with the sentiments.

but i also feel like this table is getting pretty damn wide....

i feel like you should add a column for a random country and make up another grading system. Bet it would go unnoticed for a long time....

Universal Grading System (UGS):

UGS_1: I can crush it
UGS_2: I can send but lack crush
UGS_3: I can send but need to hang or work on a sequence
UGS_4: Requires training but maybe one day I'll send.
UGS_5: Only elite athletes have a chance
UGS_6: Offwidth

Fabien M wrote:

Side note about this chart: the french bouldering system is presented wrong. The letter is always an uppercase letter (for ex: 6C+), not to confuse it with the lowercase sport climbing grades (6c+, for ex)

You're gonna be pissed when you go on Bleau.info or buy a French bouldering guide then, they use lower case. Using upper case is an idea from 8a.nu so can be ignored.

Now the use of F6a and f6a we understand!

One thing on that chart jumps out at me....Why does Denmark have a rating system ?

Edit:  And really.  How hard would it’ve been to just go ahead and pencil in 5.4 and 5.5 in the USA column just to complete it like the other columns.  

How about dose of us still looking to redpoined our first 5.3, Mark?

DO DA FLADIRONS MEAN NODTING TO YOU?

So elitist....

Mark Pilate wrote:

One thing on that chart jumps out at me....Why does Denmark have a rating system ?

Edit:  And really.  How hard would it’ve been to just go ahead and pencil in 5.4 and 5.5 in the USA column just to complete it like the other columns.  

It's from a (the) South African climbing website climb.co.za. Kind of strange this comes up as a reference... Having lived in Denmark I can confidently say there is no reason whatsoever that Denmark needs a rating system. Living in South Africa now, I also quite like the South African system. Simple, open ended. 

In all honesty, compared to the metric system etc., climbing grades should be very low on the list of things to standardize. I quite enjoy the local variations and the history and tradition they all reflect. Sometimes even local customs and conditions that would get lost in a universal system. These days it's really easy to convert too, MP has it as a setting on the app.

I'd say let's work on the metric system for now....

Jim Titt wrote:

You're gonna be pissed when you go on Bleau.info or buy a French bouldering guide then, they use lower case. Using upper case is an idea from 8a.nu so can be ignored.

Now the use of F6a and f6a we understand!

To be honest, I feel like it's one of the few genuinely good ideas to come out of that site. Pros, at least, seem to have more or less adopted it, in both Europe and N America. The "F," capitalized or otherwise, feels redundant in most cases, and I only really see it used frequently in the UK to distinguish it from the UK tech grade (which can burn in hell for all I care, sorry Brits).

Also, allow me to argue against the V scale for a moment. The V scale has the benefit of being clean, just a number, no pluses or minuses, no extra letters, which is nicer aesthetically than the Font scale. 

The big problem with the V scale is that it honestly starts way too high, which is an artifact of the environment where it was developed (by a bunch of strong guys in Hueco who didn't care about easy problems). This encourages grade inflation, as a "proper" V0 should have a crux equal to the hardest moves one would ever find on 5.10a route (or something like that). Some places, like Yosemite, generally adhere to this, but it means that most beginners should have essentially no chance of getting up a V0. An example would be a V0 friction slab climb that is right in line with a 5.10- friction crux in an old-school trad area. I've seen beginners get royally pissed at these. 

The solution that happens, particularly at gyms, is to grade "V0s" that are laughably soft compared to the historical standard, which in turn drags down the average difficulty of V1, V2, V3, etc., screwing things up entirely. I've seen climbers fresh out of gyms where they regularly send V3 being totally destroyed by V0s outside partially by a lack of technique but also because "real" V0 is actually kinda hard. 

Extending the V scale backwards to include easier problems results in things like "V0-," "Veasy," "Vbasic," or even "V-1" that I've heard many beginners describe as demeaning. The Font scale neatly sidesteps this issue by having a bunch of lower grades built in, and having what passes for V0 at areas that haven't experienced much grade inflation correspond to Font 4A or so.

If climbing grades are not really standardized between areas using the same grading system then how can we get a universal system?

Honestly, I think the consensus grading on MP might be the best method.  Yet, there are clear biases with the ratings.  E.g., The Open Book (at Tahquitz) IS the 5.9 and yet it climbs like a modern day 5.10.

I like the Simplicity of the South African or Australian system. just being purely numerical was no pluses and minuses and letter grades. I mean what's with the YDS its numerical but after 5.10 we get letter grades but in the lower grades we get pluses and minuses and we all know very well that 5.9+ is a 5.10. I was like my friend system:

 it's easy , I will lead it. 

It's hard you lead 

it it's really hard let's top rope it it. 

It's too hard let's go home.

Raz Bob wrote:

Sometimes even local customs and conditions that would get lost in a universal system.

Sincerely, this is really interesting.

Would “we thought it would stop at 10, but this one goes to 11”, be an example of an american YDS system idiosyncrasy?

Any examples to share?

These days it's really easy to convert too, MP has it as a setting on the app.

Damnit Wilder! Time-travelling app-idea-stealing tyrant!

I'd say let's work on the metric system for now....

I don’t care where you are. Get out of MY country.

——

As much as I love the legacy of the Verm scale, the “Font scale is more welcoming” is a strong argument.

only problem with french scale id contend is the aforementioned confusion with the french free grades (and the seemingly arbitrary number/letter echelons)

so I’d maybe change my preference to either:

• Boulders-Font
• Sport - South African

or 

• Sport - french
• Boulders - verm with an extended systemto the left of V0 that isnt seen as demeaning.

Notions?

Maybe the here conceived “Lowe” scale? Starts at:

 L0 = V0 ≈ 5.10+ crux

V0- ≈ L1 ≈ 5.9- crux

VEasy ≈ L2 ≈ 5.9 crux

VBasic ≈ L3 ≈ 5.8 crux

Emphasis on ease and welcoming climbers who advance in some sort of “countdown” to “hard climbing” i.e. ‘true’ bouldering, while honoring that whole “Have fun, or what’s the point?” mentality.

Would also have a natural aesthetic to the names.

“Lowe” would sound of “low” to most unfamiliar with the legacy, so it would feel natural and functional, with more depth to it as one explores the origins.

And

“What does V mean? Vigorous?”
“Sort of! But technically it come from ‘Vermin’”

“Why? Are boulderers vermin?” 

“.... yeah, sort of. It’s uhhh kind of a long (great) story.”
——————

+1 for the notion of big data social information systems touting edifying resources (Big Sister, as opposed to ‘big brother’, is watching - I am oumping up fughin GOLD ideas this morning) providing the tech for consensus driven grades and the distribution profile (standard deviation/kurtosis, mode, skewness), regardless of grading scale used.

Could even be fun to make “grading system” a choice in such a system.

E.g. if you wanted to you could call FreeRider a V10 instead of a cruxy, long 13b. You’d be a troll-esque idiot to do so, but your vote would be cast and your idiot voice heard.

Sincerely, it would be fun to open up entirely new ground to argue the “Top Rope Route / Free Solo / High Ball Boulder” debate.