Are the tie in loops for newer harnesses loaded for carabineer use?

Basically I was taught to belay with the carabineer through both tie in loops and not the belay loop. I have gotten really comfortable with this method but recently upon taking a belay test at a climbing gym I was told that the tie in loops are not rated or loaded for carabineers and if I caught a hard fall the tie in loops would fail. I was told the belay loop is purposely there so this wouldn't happen and I need to do it that way. Is this true or was is more of a gym liability thing?

I imagine it would be easier to load a belay carabiner triaxially if is through two tie in loops plus a loaded belay device. Also seems less convenient.
Use the belay loop for belaying. It’s super strong. 

The tie-in points won't break, but the belay loop is made for...belaying.

Use the belay loop, that's what it's for.

Harrison Lussier wrote:

Basically I was taught to belay with the carabineer through both tie in loops and not the belay loop. 

You were taught wrong.

Use the belay loop for belaying. That said, the tie in loops will absolutely not break because they're 'not rated for carabiners', whatever that means.

The problem is when you go through the tie in loops, it creates a multidirectional force on the carabiner because there are three contact points, as opposed to only two when you use the belay loop, although im sure in most cases the difference is negligible 

I believe the reason I was told to use the tie in loops was because older harnesses never had a belay loop. I was taught by an older climber not an instructor. It was the person who worked for the gym that mentioned the loops not being able to support a large fall. It seemed very odd to me. 

Harrison Lussier wrote:

I believe the reason I was told to use the tie in loops was because older harnesses never had a belay loop. I was taught by an older climber not an instructor. It was the person who worked for the gym that mentioned the loops not being able to support a large fall. It seemed very odd to me. 

The tie in loops are mega strong and will not break.  The belay loop is a belay loop, use the belay loop.   If you use the tie in loops it orients the biner in the wrong direction and could cause cross loading.   Just use the belay loop. 

A falling climber's harness sees more force than the belayer's.     If the tie-in loops weren't strong enough for the belayer, we'd have a serious problem using them to tie in for climbing.  Explanations around carabiner loading make more sense (but even then only for extreme falls).

Serge S wrote:

A falling climber's harness sees more force than the belayer's.     If the tie-in loops weren't strong enough for the belayer, we'd have a serious problem using them to tie in for climbing.  Explanations around carabiner loading make more sense (but even then only for extreme falls).

And let’s also acknowledge that the forces required to break a carabiner, even in a triaxial loading scenario, would probably turn your pelvis into pudding first.

We put so much thought into the different ways gear could fail, without realizing that in most cases we break long before the gear does.

Harrison Lussier wrote:

I believe the reason I was told to use the tie in loops was because older harnesses never had a belay loop. I was taught by an older climber not an instructor. It was the person who worked for the gym that mentioned the loops not being able to support a large fall. It seemed very odd to me. 

This is the best argument I've seen to, as the gear tags say, "seek QUALIFIED Instructiuon". (emphasis mine) As has been pointed out, you were taught wrong.

You were told the right thing— use your belay loop for belaying!

But you were given a completely bullshit explanation for why you should do it.

Obviously the tie-in points are strong enough to withstand the forces of a lead fall, and then some (lot!). They are not going to break if you put the carabiner through your tie-in points, and belay that way. The weakest link in the biner-through-tie-in-points scenario is not the tie-in points. It’s the gate of the belay ‘biner, which could come into play if the belay biner is loaded badly when catching a fall, due to the geometry of two tie-in points and the belay device potentially creating 3 different axis of pull.

Is it going to happen every time you catch a fall? Heck, no. Plenty of falls have been caught on a carabiner clipped through two tie-in points. But it COULD happen. It’s a small, but entirely avoidable risk, and it gives no benefits on a modern climbing harness that has a belay loop. Therefore, you should avoid it. 

We should also not forget that there probably won't be an equal or even somewhat equal distribution of force between the two tie-in points, no matter whether you use the (essentially static) belay loop or a carabiner, so a) what the gym person said doesn't matter anyway and b) triaxial loading should be a non-issue here... In a gym situation I'd assume the leg tie-in point will take 90+ percent of the load...? Whatcha guys think?

The loading on the clip gate does make the most sense. Ive not had an issue belaying before I just was very throw off by the reasoning I had gotten. I completely understand why the belay loop does make it easier. I personally wouldn't say I was taught wrong due to the fact that it was an older climber who is use to older harnesses and that's how they belayed back then. Obviously things have changed in the way things are done. My main reason for the post was really trying to understand what the hell this gym employee was telling me haha. Thank you for all the pointers and info too. I will definitely practice more on using the belay loop.  

A good hip belay would eliminate all this speculation.

Harrison Lussier wrote:

The loading on the clip gate does make the most sense. Ive not had an issue belaying before I just was very throw off by the reasoning I had gotten. I completely understand why the belay loop does make it easier. I personally wouldn't say I was taught wrong due to the fact that it was an older climber who is use to older harnesses and that's how they belayed back then. 

I've heard this from several older climbers, especially when I was learning to climb. I really wonder how that misinformation became so widespread. Hopefully the answers in this thread cleared it up for you!

Dylan Pike wrote:

I've heard this from several older climbers, especially when I was learning to climb. I really wonder how that misinformation became so widespread. 

Just to clarify, you're saying that belaying through the tie in points is the misinformation? I was taught this way simply because old harnesses didn't even have a belay loop. I understand though since the new harnesses have them it seems pretty unnecessary to clip into the tie in loops and not just use the belay loop.

Harrison Lussier wrote:

Just to clarify, you're saying that belaying through the tie in points is the misinformation? I was taught this way simply because old harnesses didn't even have a belay loop. I understand though since the new harnesses have them it seems pretty unnecessary to clip into the tie in loops and not just use the belay loop.

Correct. The misinformation is "this harness has a third loop that the old style harnesses don't have, so it must be unsafe to use the third loop for anything." 

I suppose if you are just used to belaying through the tie in points and are fine with your grigri being oriented sideways, then go for it. People have been doing it for decades and I don't think its really a safety issue. The belay loop just orients your belay device in a more ergonomic way and gets it out of your crotch.

Just to try to figure out the gym employee's reasoning, I've heard people say that the tie-in points are soft goods (rope, PAS, etc) and the belay loop is for hard goods (carabiners, anything metal). While this is generally true in terms of what they are used for, it doesn't mean that the tie-in points are not "rated for carabiners" but this might be the conclusion that the gym employee had made.

Kate Sedrowski wrote:

Just to try to figure out the gym employee's reasoning, I've heard people say that the tie-in points are soft goods (rope, PAS, etc) and the belay loop is for hard goods (carabiners, anything metal). While this is generally true in terms of what they are used for, it doesn't mean that the tie-in points are not "rated for carabiners" but this might be the conclusion that the gym employee had made.

In my experience as an employee and patron of climbing gyms, gym employees often make up BS to explain a best practice or policy. This is usually because they don't actually know the reason for the BP or policy, but could also be because they are lazy and don't want to provide a proper explanation.

The reason he should have provided is that their insurance policy dictates that he tell you to do so