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Communicating climbing commands
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Pretty basic question. Do you say “belay off!” Before, or after you take someone off belay? Had a situation today where my climbing partner was going to rap off the anchor. He said “off belay.” So I took him off, and then yelled “belay off!” Back to him. I had someone near by just hanging out watching us. And he got pretty mad at me because I said it after I took him off belay. He said it’s horrible practice and doesn’t make sense to say it after I do it.
The thing is, my partner and I both use the commands in the same way. It’s not like we have differing definitions. He even said when I brought it up to him that he uses it the same way as I do. So is it a problem? Is there a “true” And standard way to use it, so I’m not miscommunicating to partners Im the future? |
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That guy was a fucken dork. |
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Personal preferrence. Still, I say “Belay off” after I pull it out so he/she knows the rope is free to be pulled up. Why did he think it should be said before? Some think so because it gives a chance for the leader to yell “No!” if there was a miscommunication. But I say, just keep’em on belay unless you very clearly heard to do otherwise. What’s the harm to keeping him/her on belay in the face of ambiguity Edit: Mark said it better |
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1. No need for your partner to communicate they are tied to the anchor - that’s what “off belay” is for - variations like “in direct”; “safe”; or “secure” are superficial or potentially confusing; 2. If you can see or clearly hear your partner, I think it’s fine to call back “belay off” after you’ve taken them off belay; 3. If you can’t see or clearly differentiate your partner calling “[name], belay off”, pausing, and then taking them off belay is good practice to give the leader a chance to clarify. |
Mark Pilate wrote: That’s kinda what I was thinking |
FosterK wrote: 1. I agree. I’m not one to use them personally but my partner does. I don’t mind as long as I can clearly see him and hear him. I do find unnecessary chatter to be too much at times on multipitch and what not. 2. We were on a fairly short slabby route. I could see and hear him perfectly clearly. and we talked the plan for rapping out on the ground before. 3. Something I practice as well. I would rather have him clarify, or have to feed the entire rope through my belay device than take him off belay in a scenario that I’m not sure what he said. Today was not one of these scenarios though. |
Mark Pilate wrote: this made my day. OP does it the same way I have for 20 years. climber says "off belay" as command, belayer says "belay off" to indicate that it's done so that rope can be pulled, or whatever else. id be annoyed if I started to pull rope after hearing I was off, and still had to fight the belay... On the other hand "in direct" is something I don't say, and urge others not to. what does that mean, and what is the purpose of saying it? does it mean that you're off belay in which case why wouldn't you just say that? Or clipped in but not off belay? in which case why say anything at all? I like to say "take" or "slack" or "off belay" all of which are clear in what they mean and as a command. |
FosterK wrote: 3. If you can’t see or clearly differentiate your partner calling “[name], belay off”, pausing, and then taking them off belay is good practice to give the leader a chance to clarify. If there’s any doubt that you might need a chance to clarify, keep them on belay. What if the same communication issues that put you in doubt in the first place prevent them from hearing your “warning”? In climbing commands, an important rule for me is don’t yell out things that aren’t true. Don’t yell “off belay” if you’re not ready to be off belay. Don’t yell out “ belay off” if it’s not. I find it annoying to start pulling up rope and having to fight against my partner who hasn’t actually removed their belay device yet, just as I’m sure they find it annoying to try to remove the device with me yarding on the rope. |
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I say off belay only after I take my partner off belay because of the time in the past where I said off belay on a multipitch and ended up having the belay device yanked out of my hand as I was taking it off and my partner started to pull up the rope at the same time. edit to add: Personally I've begun moving away from off/on belay commands with my consistent partners mostly because I have a hearing loss and tbh, when someone is 150' away from you and yelling, the "ah" sound of off belay and the "aw" sound of on belay sound exactly the same. Doesn't make any sense that the only difference between two drastically different meanings would be communicated by the more subtle sounds in the words. "Safe" for "off belay" works really well and then I can use "on belay" and there's never a question of what is being requested |
Fail Falling wrote: Same. |
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does anybody have any idea what the rationale could be in this random crazy person's mind for how it could be worse? i can't think of any justification. i, like others have said, hate when i hear belay off and can't pull the rope up yet. |
Fail Falling wrote: This is why my partner and I use "on belay" and "belay off." The order of the words matters. That way, if you hear "[mumble] belay", the mumble means "on", while in "belay mumble" it means "off." |
Jeff Santner wrote: What my regular partners and I seem to have settled upon ... If the word “belay” is in the command, the belayer uses that word first. The non-belayer does not. Climber: on belay? Belayer: belay’s on Climber: off belay Belayer: belay’s off |
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I don’t understand why someone would say “off belay” if the leader is not completely...off belay. It’s like if someone asks “on belay?” And you reply “belay on”, but you don’t actually have them on belay yet or are ready. Like...”Nah man, just climb, I’ll get ya on belay eventually, let me fiddle with this for a second.” |
Fail Falling wrote: I strongly urge you to rethink this one. With a little wind/road noise/people chatter, "SAFE" can sometimes sound a lot like "TAKE" (happened to me once last year). No problem there, but if your buddy yells "TAKE" and you hear "SAFE", not so great (heard a story from Australia about this). |
Tankie Green wrote: Whenever you can have eye contact at the crag, agree with your buddy (in advance) about a set of clear hand signals instead. Then possible confusion with other people's yelling is completely removed. And your own yelling will not confuse/disturb others. |
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I think it makes more sense to say it just before you do it. This gives the climber a opportunity to correct you if you accidentally misheard or perhaps accidentally heard another party. That said I’m not sure I always follow my own reasoning. You can give out a big armful of slack before hand to keep the leader from pulling the belay device. |
Em Cos wrote: Don’t disagree with this - my normal process with my partners is always keeping the belay if there is high uncertainty and to start climbing if you run out of rope. I was understanding the OP as being at a busy crag, where that level of uncertainty is not present, but other parties may be making the communication less clear. When in doubt, keep the belay on. |
chris b wrote: Is it possible that the OP yelled this out at the top of his lungs- when the partner was 45 feet away? Maybe the Partner shattered the morning calm by yelling, again at the top of his/her lungs- “in direct”........ Maybe the A-hole was referring to the whole way you guys “do it?” in total. Two sides to every coin Jess sayin |
Patrik wrote: Safe is not a climbing command |
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Some previous threads on this topic with banter aplenty. Seems like there's a lot of opinions but no right or wrong system, just good communication and bad communication; either of which can take many different forms. My partners and I manage to clearly communicate many things without screaming anything across the wall at one another... voodoo maybe. The OP's example sounds like a single pitch cragging situation, to which I would ask, "why is he rappelling in the first place?" |
