Help an old guy move to overhanging sport climbing

So, I've been climbing just a hair over 2 years and haven't done a whole lot of climbing specific training (for reference, I am I'm 42 y/o, 180lbs, 6'4 ).  I've mostly been trying to get back into it after a multi-decade break.  I try to climb 2-4 times a week; I think even if I average that out with ski season/ice climbing season, I've done about that amount over the last 2 years.

I've mostly been trying to get to where I am comfortable leading trad and falling on sport, and that goal seems to be close to accomplished.  I'm now 100% okay taking a whip into space, even if I get gripped at the idea of doing that on a stopper or small cam and/or landing a ledge  :D

I seem to be able to onsight mid 5.10 okay, depending on the climb... but most of the stuff I've been doing has been vertical or less, mostly older trad/mixed climbs.

I recently started climbing at a way overhanging limestone crag (a bunch of overhangs, jugs, and permadraws) and I've been totally getting shut down.  I keep melting off of fairly big holds on 5.10d or maybe 11a.

I think that I can get out to that crag about 2 times a week, but I am feeling seriously shut down after 2 or 3 attempts on the easier climbs on this crag, and that is if I just bolt-to-bolt climb the warmup.  I can pull all the moves bolt-to-bolt, for what it's worth.

This is likely a technique issue.  I've been working on climbing smoothly, backsteps, flagging, dropping knees, finding rests...  stuff that isn't really necessary on the (sub)vertical stuff I've been doing up to now.  And I am just starting out climbing at this crag... (i've been there twice).  I am figuring that if I give over two days a week to that, then I will progress somewhat.

But while I am going there and working technique, is there a specific exercise set that someone would recommend?

Or a more specific approach to learning the techniques?

Or just general advice?

This definitely falls more into general advice;

I am of the ardent opinion that the best way to get better at steep sport is to find a climb that you can just barely do all the moves on, and spend the time to get it so ruthlessly dialed that you end up clipping the chains, rinse, and repeat.

Its a useful exercise because,

1) It helps develop rhythm, which is an important element in that kind of climbing that just doesn't come into play (much) in vertical routes and slabs.

2) Even if you're not sending you are getting in a pretty solid power endurance workout that mimics perfectly the kind of strength you are trying to develop.

Over the last couple years I've been trying to convince myself I like sport climbing despite sucking at it and I feel like of all the stuff I've done to get better at it that is what has helped the most.

Other than sticking with it and going to the crag to train, try some incline pull ups at home. Put your feet up on a chair, out in front of you, so that your body is at an inclined position, thus emulating steep climbing.  With a bit more steep climbing power, each move will take slightly less effort and ultimately result in more sending and more stamina at the crag.  Always listen to your body and don’t overtrain.  Good luck and have fun. 

don't know that I can offer much advice but I can sympathize (41, 6' 3", 210, climbing again for a year or so now after a 20 yr break).  Not like I was an amazing climber then either, but I could hold my own on the juggy overhanging limestone around Austin and tiptoe up some pretty tricky granite at E rock.  just now breaking back into mid-10s, and learning that the shitty technique I could get away with on overhanging stuff when I was 20 yrs younger and 40 lbs lighter just doesn't cut it anymore. 

That being said, I think strength is more of a factor than some people recognize, at least in certain aspects like grip and ability to lock off on a move and hold it when you need to. I pretty quickly got to a point where I could reliably get up steep (but not quite overhaning) 5.10a/b climbs outside, but was absolutely getting my ass kicked on even slightly overhanging 5.7 routes in the gym.  I put a lot of effort into improving technique, but more into rebuilding grip strength, pulling power and core strength and now have pretty much caught up to being able to grunt up overhanging low 10s.  Regardless of skill, at some point there's just no substitute for a good power/weight ratio to be able to hang on when things go past vertical.  

get after it!

Have you tried lying in cold mountain stream and flogging yourself with frozen fish of considerable size?

Seriously though, I would suspect it's more of a strength/aggression/pacing issue than a technique issue. It may not be super in vogue, but I've found general strength to be helpful for steeper climbing. Weight lifting, weighted pullups, harder core exercises, etc. Of course finger strength will always be the main thing, but that can only come so quickly; you can build up other muscles faster. I also find that feeling physically strong encourages me to move faster and more aggressively, which is important for a bigger guy (for a climber at least) like yourself on overhanging terrain.

46yo; 6'3"; 210lbs

1. The Lattice guys had some data that taller people had relatively weaker cores.  This is more of an issue with overhung routes where your butt tends to hang down.  Answer: work your core

2. Keep your body close to the wall, turn your hips when possible

3. Work routes on TR before leading.  Even if you are OK with the falls, your lizard brain may be making you over-grip and overdo the body tension.  Once you have the route dialed on TR and know all the beta you may find it easier to get on the sharp end

I find that being on steep overhung terrain is a really uncomfortable place to be both mentally and physically. There are all sorts of alarm bells ringing in brain when there is nothing but air underneath you, which causes you to overgrip, and the steadily rising pump that builds up until you are "melting off big holds" is both a physically uncomfortable sensation, which adds to the stress, and a signal to your brain that reinforces all those alarm bells, which can cause you to overgrip even more. I say overgrip, but its really more than that, generally your technique goes to shit at least a few moves before your hands actually open up and you fall, and thats a big part of the struggle, keeping your technique together under these super stressful conditions. Given the way these mental and physical signals reinforce each other I think really purposefully training both your body and mind will be the fastest way for you to improve. 

I think a great way to do this is to go to the crag or gym, and find a couple of steep routes that you can redpoint (sounds like maybe 5.9 or 10a might be a good range for you) and make a project of climbing continuously up, down, then up again. This continuous time  on the wall will develop the type of large hold endurance that you seem to be lacking. But don't just mentally tune out, While you are doing this, each time pick one specific aspect of technique to focus on. Ie: Breathing deeply and continuously, pacing (sprint between rests, stop, then sprint to the next one, this becomes more an more important as the angle steepens), footwork (get specific, pick a technique to focus on, drop knees, flagging, heel hooks, toe hooks etc.), gripping as lightly as possible, keeping your hips into the wall, etc. Rest as you need to on the route, and again really practice your technique for resting, experimenting with different body positions to find the most relaxing stance, make sure you are breathing deeply and slowly, and make sure you are mentally relaxing as well. However, try not to give yourself full recovery if you come to any full no hands rests, as that will lessen the physical training gains, you are looking for a continuous pump. Climbing while pumped is a skill in itself, and this drill should give you plenty of practice at that. a big component of that skill is learning to stay relaxed and keep climbing with good technique even while your forearms are screaming. 

If the only steep terrain you have access to is that crag and you can't redpoint the warmup, I would back up a step and make repointing that your project, then make up down upping it your project (disclaimer- its important to have good crag manners here and not monopolize the warmup). in this case I would just put in time on the route and try to really dial in the specific beta for that route, even on the easier moves try to really be as efficient as possible, this will be a good way to force yourself to learn how to move well on some steeper terrain as you build up your endurance by making longer and longer links.

I would second what someone above said, some core work will probably be very helpful, especially as a taller climber. All that length means extra leverage on your core. Hanging leg raises, windshield wipers, hollow body holds are good options. 

Another great way to learn technique is to watch some videos of great climbers on steep terrain, check out some of the IFSC lead or boulder world cups on YouTube, you get to see great climbers do the same route one after another which is a great way to pick up technique ideas. 

one other specific technique thought- a lot of climbers who come from an older school trad background tend to climb pretty statically, if that sounds like you try and focus on climbing more dynamically, its often more efficient on steeper terrain. a good drill for this that I like to do in my warmup is sloth/monkey. you climb the same route twice, once real slow and statically (like a sloth) and then again really dynamically (like a monkey)

That's a lot of great advice in the above post. I have the same problem as OP--I climb at least a full number grade higher on slab to slightly past vertical than I do on real roofs or significantly overhanging terrain. What "nowhere" said about the "alarm bells" really hits home--I've been climbing for ~25 years and haven't been able to shake that feeling, though I haven't put in a really concerted effort to try all of the techniques he/she mentioned. 

I would cut yourself a little slack. As someone whos primary climbing mission is to climb overhangs and horizontal caves (I am 6'3'' 180lbs) my endurance on overhangs is a fraction of what it normally is when gyms are open. One thing you didn't mention is straight arms which I would say is very important. As others have said use your feet and technique but really prioritize your feet. Like play around on a jug to jug and make sure all the work is being done in your legs. There is a difference between "using" your legs and the climbing being guided by your legs. I would recommend buying the self coached climber or how to train for climbing (eric horst) if you are really serious about improving. 

Some general comments on technique. It's good that you're focusing on technique, because climbing overhangs is different than climbing vertical/slabs, especially on how you use your feet. On vertical/slabs, you can often just "perch" on your feet, put your CoG (center of gravity) over your feet and just relax and hang out. When you're "using your feet" on vertical/slabs, you're normally just pressing your feet away from your CoG (against gravity).

On overhangs you can't just simply press the footholds away from your CoG anymore, because your body would just sag and put more weight on your arms. Whenever you have the opportunity you need to find ways to keep your CoG (around your navel for us guys) closer to the wall, which helps to take weight off your arms. So whenever you can, try to find little incuts on footholds where you can dig your toes in (either big toe or little toe, depending on if you're using inside edge or outside edge) and apply downward pressure on the foothold (against gravity). This is often called "toe in". When you do this, you also need to be able to hold your body rigid (body tension) in order to get your CoG close to the wall and not just sag down like a bag of potatoes, this is where core strength comes into play. Drop knees, heel/toe hooks are also other ways to keep your CoG close to the wall.

Obviously you're not climbing with your body rigid the whole time, generally you're alternating between hanging down from your arms in order to move your feet, to getting weight on your feet and move your hands. This picture demonstrates the idea pretty well. When you practice your technique, keep that in mind and try to dig and pull with your feet as much as you can.

Ayy thanks for all the support.  I went to the crag and had a much better time today.

Some responses, cause I found yall so helpful:

"you're a pup, [...] You'll get a kick out of the number of folks twenty years older than you or more at the crags who climb in the 13s." 

Neat.  I play a lot of music with folks 20-30 years older than me, and i hope to be as good s some of them some day.  Glad I can look forward to similar from climbing.

"So whenever you can, try to find little incuts on footholds where you can dig your toes in (either big toe or little toe, depending on if you're using inside edge or outside edge) and apply downward pressure on the foothold (against gravity). This is often called "toe in"."  

"play around on a jug to jug and make sure all the work is being done in your legs."

Very helpful... I made a concerted effort at this today and it was def easier.

"What "nowhere" said about the "alarm bells" really hits home"

Agreed, and the rest of that post feels really helpful.

"Work routes on TR before leading."

Yeah, my partner suggested that I break down one of the climbs after going bolt to bolt at the top, and linking stuff that way made me feel a lot better about coming back tomorrow and redpointing.

"Have you tried lying in cold mountain stream and flogging yourself with frozen fish of considerable size?"

That's my morning beauty routine.

"... that being said, I think strength is more of a factor than some people recognize"

I agree.  I find it to be less of an issue on the stuff that I have good technique on, though.

"Always listen to your body and don’t overtrain."

Quality advice.

"Even if you're not sending you are getting in a pretty solid power endurance workout that mimics perfectly the kind of strength you are trying to develop"

Yup, I've kind of tried to accept that, cause i certainly wasn't sending today.

Maybe tomorrow.

Go to Rifle

Mark E Dixon wrote:

Go to Rifle

Too much of a commute.  This place is closer (golf wall in Durango).  I'm curious how they compare, but I wouldn't travel for this kind of climbing when I could travel for other stuff. :D

Only 6 hours

Mark E Dixon wrote:

Only 6 hours

Shit, man, I can find overhanging, grid-bolted stuff I can't pull 30 min from my door.

Mark E Dixon wrote:

Only 6 hours

Isn’t there like a parking issue there?

Have you gotten into bouldering at all? Great tool for simultaneously building strength and technique.

It comes with it’s own unique flavor of risks (easier to overdo it and blow a pulley, falling off means hitting the deck), and quality crash pads can be a bit pricey, but you don’t need to rely on a partner and a rope to practice the craft.

Looks like you may have some awesome steep options nearby (damn that boulder looks fun and I am jealous), and you’re entering the grade range where bouldering starts to be as fun as it is frustrating, yeah?

Also, as you start to build up your lats/delts and whatnot on the steeper stuff, don’t forget to balance it out by strengthening the antagonists. Muscular imbalances and the resulting pathologies are less-than-enjoyable.

Here’s what appears to be some dense expert advice from a lady who’s pretty ok at training up decent climbers.   

"Have you gotten into bouldering at all? Great tool for simultaneously building strength and technique."

I was on that specific problem last November and failed to top out, cause, like....

Bouldering is literally all the stuff I hate the most about climbing, all wrapped up into a neat package.  Once, in the 90s, I was spotting a dude and he came down funny and had a compound tib-fib fracture.  It was literally the worst physical trauma I have seen in my life.  Last time I was bouldering (around the corner from that problem) I popped off a problem and bruised my foot for 4 weeks. I hate the gripped feeling I get when I am pulling a harder move trying to get my first piece placed... but at least I eventually get the piece in and am "safe-ish".  I hate the frustration of struggle bussing on stuff that I'm not physically able to do... but at least I can usually pull on a draw and get past it.  

But yeah, you're probably right about bouldering being the next step.  My main hope for sport climbing is that I can get the same kind of physical gain but only, like, fall 10' onto a rope if I fail.  Maybe I'd have different reaction to bouldering now that I have more experience lead climbing.

Thanks for the reminder on antagonist training... I already had a 6-week hiatus last year when I developed tendonosis (my thought is that my upright-bass frettin' hand was strong, but the tendon wasn't used to gripping while extended so big ouch for a while).

Right on.

Mega yikes on the compound tib fib fracture. Not a pretty sight, I imagine...

Yep yep yep, it kinda sounds like you described everything that’s legitimately awful about bouldering.

But other than all that, it can be pretty amazing  . The stronger you get, the more fun bouldering becomes. But, imo, until V1/V2 starts to feel “easy-ish”, it can be pretty brutal on the ego (and body, if not super careful).

Once you are strong enough to not have that “insta-gripped” feeling (on boulders and lead), it all becomes significantly “safer”. Easier to predict/control the fall, step off the wall if feeling insecure, etc etc. But bouldering is definitely a more non-fatal-injury-prone activity, in general, than rope climbing (in my experience). Copious padding is essential to avoiding a “really bad time".

At a certain point, that becomes a risk evaluation training tool/exercise in and off itself - playing with that “how gripped can I feel and still be ‘solid’? How gently can I grip the holds and not lose contact and control?" Etc.

Definitely not worth it if it’s not fun or feels too dangerous, though. Easy enough to work it on lead, with the right partner and routes.

Upright-bass frettin’ hand? Badass. You’re the cat’s pajamas, John. 

1) Core- but more specifically, focus on the big muscle groups like the rectus abdominii.  Try bird-dogs, boat crunches and leg drops.  

2) I don’t know what your gym situation is right now, but gym bouldering, specifically on the overhung walls.  Get a brush, get a beanie, start calling everyone bro... but seriously, I used to hate overhangs but I’ve worked on them a lot.  they take strength, but you also have to learn how to read the routes upside down and train your neurons to do those weird ass movements.  So much of climbing training is just training your body to do the moves until it does them without thinking about it.  The nice thing about gym bouldering is you can get a lot of reps on these moves in a short time because problems are short. 

Elizabeth Townsend wrote:

1) Core- but more specifically, focus on the big muscle groups like the rectus abdominii.  Try bird-dogs, boat crunches and leg drops.  

2) I don’t know what your gym situation is right now, but gym bouldering, specifically on the overhung walls.  Get a brush, get a beanie, start calling everyone bro... but seriously, I used to hate overhangs but I’ve worked on them a lot.  they take strength, but you also have to learn how to read the routes upside down and train your neurons to do those weird ass movements.  So much of climbing training is just training your body to do the moves until it does them without thinking about it.  The nice thing about gym bouldering is you can get a lot of reps on these moves in a short time because problems are short. 

Yeh, I had a pretty good gym routine last fall... the combination of covid and the fact that there's good (free) climbing very close to me has kept me out, but I really liked having a nice floor to fall onto from the stupid hard problems.

I should look and see how it's operating these days.