Redacted route titles?

So I noticed for the first time a "redaction" of a route title last weekend.  It was 'The Final Solution' which I understand to be a potential reference to the Holocaust.
As it is next to another route, 'Der Fuhrer,' a few routes over, I suppose that seems likely enough.
So The Final Solution has been Redacted, but Der Fuhrer has not. Hmmm...

So what is the decided standard for redaction if there is one & how is it carried out and by whom?
Or is this still ad-hoc?

 It was 'The Final Solution' which I understand to be a potential reference to the Holocaust.
Yet 'Der Fuhrer' stands a few routes over.

Lol. Potential reference.... ?

Cherokee Nunes wrote:

Lol. Potential reference.... ?

Yes, it seems that way.  But I don't assume that it is what Jim Intended in 1976, and I don't know that 'Der Fuhrer' wasn't put up later, giving the appearance.
Have you asked Jim? I have not, but I could, I guess. Meanwhile I don't presume.
There are combinations of words that fall together in ways we don't expect and don't meet our narratives.

Let's engage this thought process for a moment:
If you heard the phrase 'Of Human Bondage' what would you expect that to be about?

Probably something to do with the novel or the movie? But here is the thing - if it was located near another route referring to slave traffic then there is an obvious conclusion to which I would jump. If they rename the hitler route maybe they can get their final solution back? But I don't have a dog in this fight, I was just having a chuckle. I mean you nor anyone else any disrespect. Have a great day and I'll trouble you no further.

Cherokee Nunes wrote:

Probably something to do with the novel or the movie? But here is the thing - if it was located near another route referring to slave traffic then there is an obvious conclusion to which I would jump. If they rename the hitler route maybe they can get their final solution back? But I don't have a dog in this fight, I was just having a chuckle. I mean you nor anyone else any disrespect. Have a great day and I'll trouble you no further.

Of Human Bondage was located next to Happiness in Slavery.  Neither one of which has anything to do with the slave trade, of course.  Regardless, if it did, then 'obvious' conclusion do you jump to?
If it changes the meaning of the route, you are failing to consider that the latter was put up 30 years later and refers to the former, not vice-versa.

I'm not taking offense, but I am challenging your 'chuckle.' Because it is a presumption and not a fact, and that is why I said it the way I did.

"Final Solution" was likely a turn of phrase in many languages prior to the Holocaust, and will likely remain as one, I expect, though tainted by one particular historical use of it.
I doubt that the many times I have heard that turn of phrase in design reviews it was intended to be anything Anti-Semitic. It was a term used to highlight the difference between an interim action and a final one in terms of containment or elimination of a product quality issue. I suppose if everyone is 'woke' enough they can say "eventual last corrective action" instead if "final solution" becomes taboo.

Of Human Bondage was located next to Happiness in Slavery.  Now what 'obvious' conclusion do you jump to?

I'm not taking offense, but I am challenging your 'chuckle.'

Fine, if the point you made is better supported by challenging my chuckle, troll on lol. I suspect you're not going to get your final solution unredacted as a result, though. But glad to serve your cause.

Tony, I think most of your questions are covered in the post below.  Short answer: interim step until we have better guidance from a larger group.

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/119453844/update-on-route-names-82720

Any possibility we can have an option in our profile to toggle if we want to see the original or changed name? I see you can click on it on the page for the route to load another page with the original name. That doesn't help for the redacted names in the route list navigation. Default it to showing the changed names, but allow users to toggle?

MojoMonkey wrote:

Any possibility we can have an option in our profile to toggle if we want to see the original or changed name? I see you can click on it on the page for the route to load another page with the original name. That doesn't help for the redacted names in the route list navigation. Default it to showing the changed names, but allow users to toggle?

Great idea. 

MojoMonkey wrote:

Any possibility we can have an option in our profile to toggle if we want to see the original or changed name? I see you can click on it on the page for the route to load another page with the original name. That doesn't help for the redacted names in the route list navigation. Default it to showing the changed names, but allow users to toggle?

This doesn't change the problem at the existence of racist route names (i.e. tied to the whipping post) marginalize members of the outdoor community. These names need to be stricken from the record, not simply hidden from sight. What you propose is basically saying if I can't see it it doesn't exist or only hide it for those who are offended by it. That is not changing and does not make the community more inclusive.

MattWallace wrote:

This doesn't change the problem at the existence of racist route names (i.e. tied to the whipping post) marginalize members of the outdoor community. These names need to be stricken from the record, not simply hidden from sight. What you propose is basically saying if I can't see it it doesn't exist or only hide it for those who are offended by it. That is not changing and does not make the community more inclusive.

As a practical matter the site is still making both available and not striking such names from the record. It just makes them available in a clunky matter at the moment. And the "redacted" entries cripple the left navigation bar functionality somewhat, particularly if there are multiple in a list.

A short-term problem, sure, but seems like an easy update while things are getting sorted out.

MojoMonkey wrote:

Any possibility we can have an option in our profile to toggle if we want to see the original or changed name? I see you can click on it on the page for the route to load another page with the original name. That doesn't help for the redacted names in the route list navigation. Default it to showing the changed names, but allow users to toggle?

Taken from the info page Nick setup to explain the new redacted policy and the meaning behind it: 

In advance of that work, MP staff and internal volunteers have reviewed flagged names and have redacted 700 route names that have been deemed overtly discriminatory and in need of quicker action. For these routes, MP shows “[Redacted]” instead of the original route name. The goal of this step is to address a set of names that clearly have no place on Mountain Project, or any climbing guide. We are attempting to find a difficult balance between making real progress on the issue, but also allow time and space for the longer-term work to be done with a broader and more diverse set of voices.

In the late ‘80s I started working on a revised guide to Index.  Discussing route names with some climbers and the FA a route name was changed because it was deemed potentially offensive.  (It was actually the name of a move released I think in the 60s, so it wasn’t something crazy)  Later I somewhat unilaterally modified a route name when published a guide to Index about 20 years ago.   There were several overtly racist route names in the Leavenworth area than never made  it into a guide.

I say this because there isn’t something new about this issue and changing route names is  something I am not categorically against. I mention the Leavenworth routes because similar action was taken there. In some ways we were ahead of the curve but more likely we were just being reasonable.

Let’s examine some of the routes “redacted.”

Slow Children - Index

Child Abuse - Index

Nazi Boyfriend - Vantage

These names were deemed so overtly discriminatory that they needed quicker action - they clearly have no place on MP or any other guide.  Of course these were named by actual people.  People who were actively engaged in “racist, misogynistic, xenophobic, and homophobic behaviors.”  Really?

Slow Children - required a “comma” to correct and hints as to the routes origin where in the comments.  The person who named it is one of the kindest and most generous guys I know.  So much for Nick’s assertion that such naming was the result of “racist, misogynistic, xenophobic, and homophobic behaviors.”

Child Abuse – Put up by Greg Child adjacent to the route Child’s Play.  I always took this to be a play on words meaning he “abused the rock."  The abuse was his fully embracing sport tactics and abandoning traditional ethics.  But now I find that he was engaged in racist, misogynistic, xenophobic, and homophobic behaviors.  And his route naming was “so overtly discriminatory that [it] needed quicker action to remediate. 

Nazi Boyfriend – (This is at Vantage) This one confuses me?  Is Nick worried about insulting Nazis or their victims.  In any event I don’t see this as rising to something that requires quick action – or any action at all for that matter.  By the way, years ago there was a local climber who did have real Nazi tendencies – I am not talking silliness like people calling Trump a Nazi - I mean literally a brown shirt wearing type of guy.   I have relatives (non-combatant Polish/Russian) who  died at the hand of the real Nazis due to "overt discrimination" and an uncle from NY who was shot in the face by a genuine Nazi near the German border with France.   When I was a kid if my mother ever caught us watching Hogan’s Hero's on TV we would get in a load of trouble because the subject matter was considered not suitable for comedy. And yet I think overreach.

I don't get tied to the "Whipping Post" problem.

 1) people have been getting whipped since the days of when my peoples were building the pyramids, so being tied to a whipping post really covered EVERY ethnicity across the globe for about 15,000 years? 

2) it's one of the best Allman Brothers' songs, about how his old lady treats him like shit and she's got him tied to the whipping post.   

Would you have a problem with "Hot Nuts"? or the problem next to it, "Nuts in your Mouth."

if so, you need to take you mind out of the gutter and either take a walk in Manhattan or buy Hot Nuts from Tractor Supply.  

Darryl Cramer wrote:

Nazi Boyfriend – (This is at Vantage) This one confuses me?  Is Nick worried about insulting Nazis or their victims.  In any event I don’t see this as rising to something that requires quick action – or any action at all for that matter.  By the way, years ago there was a local climber who did have real Nazi tendencies – I am not talking silliness like people calling Trump a Nazi - I mean literally a brown shirt wearing type of guy.   I have relatives (non-combatant Polish/Russian) who  died at the hand of the real Nazis due to "overt discrimination" and an uncle from NY who was shot in the face by a genuine Nazi near the German border with France.   When I was a kid if my mother ever caught us watching Hogan’s Hero's on TV we would get in a load of trouble because the subject matter was considered not suitable for comedy. And yet I think overreach.

https://www.mountainproject.com/route/105748615/der-fuhrer

Yeah, there are reasons that an objective standard would be helpful.
Nazi Boyfriend redacted, Der Fuhrer left to stand. (Shrugs).

"You yourself are participating in the evil, or you are not alive. Whatever you do is evil for somebody. This is one of the ironies of the whole creation.”
― Joseph Campbell, The Power of Myth

"High Class Ho" is redacted. This behavior is pathetic

Trevor Faxon wrote:

"High Class Ho" is redacted. This behavior is pathetic

Being a resident of LV, I'm sure you are surrounded by High Class Hoes and life is normal for you, but to the MP admins in their self-loathing woke world, this is offensive to the working ladies who charge over $500 an hour and equally offensive to the Low Class Hoes who give $5 handies in the parking lot of the 7/11 at 14th & Freemont.

Every route that contained the word 'Slave' has been blanket redacted. Including things like 'Belay Slave', 'Slave to the Grind', 'Slave to Gravity', etc. Absolutely pathetic.

John Q wrote:

'Slave to the Grind', 

no doubt named after the killer skid row song...

I noticed this a few days ago when I was The Hinterlands in Rumney and looking for the beta on Nicki's Crack, 11d. A friend told me, "oh yea they've started redacting offensive names." I was like: "Nikki's Crack?" Then I looked at the rest of Hinterlands. Seven climbs redacted. Made it difficult to even find your way around. Screenshot is attached. 

Here's a list of route names. If someone could explain to me what the thinking is here, I'd be all ears. Until then, I gotta say this is ridiculously misguided:

• Electric Socks, now redacted
• Nikki's Crack, now redacted
• Hinterlands Highway, now redacted
• Back Crack, now redacted (but "Killer's Crack" isn't?)
• Cold Shoulder, now redacted
• Chicken Head, now redacted
• Giant Man (a classic), now redacted
• plus two more 5.8s that don't show up in my book.

Unless I'm missing something, none of these are references to Nazis, racism, or the like. Although, maybe someone could enlighten me.

Nick Wilder wrote:

Tony, I think most of your questions are covered in the post below.  Short answer: interim step until we have better guidance from a larger group.

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/119453844/update-on-route-names-82720

If this is an interim step, the AI overlords you're using to flag things are making some serious errors.