Single wall vs. double wall

So, I’m thinking this is the year that I’ll transition from mountain huts to camping during my winter alpine excursions, but I’m struggling to decide between single and double wall tents. I understand the technical differences, but I’m having trouble figuring out which is actually the best option for my use cases.

I’ve been considering the BD Eldorado and the BA Shield 2 on the single side, and the BA Copper Spur HV2 Expedition and the MSR Access 2 for doubles. I already have a Kelty Salida 2 for 3-season camping, so that’s a base I don’t necessarily need to cover.

My main use will be one or two nights for winter alpine climbing in Japan, with perhaps a trip or two of backcountry snowboarding. I won’t be pitching tents on rocky ledges or anything. Most likely I will be below treeline for camp, though there is a chance for more exposed bivies closer to the ridge if I venture out a bit more this year. Temperatures probably in the neighborhood of 0-32 F, perhaps dropping below 0 if it’s a bad weekend. Potential for decent snow and wind.

Thanks a lot for reading and for any input!

There's no "correct" answer but for 1-2 nights I'd opt for weight savings and simplicity (ie a burly single wall). Even if conditions lend themselves to a condensation nightmare...it's only one night. I like my Rab Latok Mtn 2 if you want to throw another one on the shopping list. 

For 1 night with a good forecast I'd often prefer a bivy sack...less fuss. 

For camping below treeline in the winter, in moderate temps, is the Salida really insufficient?  I have one of those and would be quite tempted to use it in those conditions.

Note that for single layer tents, you are missing quite a few very good and very popular tents from your list.  For example, the BD Firstlight, MSR Advance Pro, Rab Latok, and similar ~3 lb bivy tents.  For these types of tents, the major benefit is light weight and fast setup, with the downsides of lower durability, breathability, small size, condensation, etc.  The application really determines if these tradeoffs make sense.  I use these tents primarily for weight-sensitive missions, meaning objectives where the tent needs to get carried in a pack over a lot of terrain, especially if that terrain is technical.

I think some more details about how you plan to use the tent would be helpful.  How far from the car are you carrying it?  Do you plan on going out regardless of forecast?  Will you need to carry the tent on technical terrain where the weight is critical?  Are you going to spend day(s) camped out in the tent awaiting good weather?

its a hard choice since there are so many variables to consider. on longer expeditions on big mountains, i've used both single and double wall but had better success in nasty environments with burly single wall tents (like bombshelters). in high wind and snow, they are just easier to setup and more robust.

Kyle Tarry wrote:

For camping below treeline in the winter, in moderate temps, if the Salida really insufficient?  I have one of those and would be quite tempted to use it in those conditions.

Well, that’s actually one of the things I’m curious about. It’s got a lot of mesh and I assume isn’t designed for high winds or snow loading, so I guessed that in the worst conditions I might face, it might not hold up. But I haven’t camped during winter trips yet, so I am not really sure.

I think some more details about how you plan to use the tent would be helpful.  How far from the car are you carrying it?  Do you plan on going out regardless of forecast?  Will you need to carry the tent on technical terrain where the weight is critical?  Are you going to spend day(s) camped out in the tent awaiting good weather?

For our usual mountain, carrying it about three hours on a moderate approach trail, and usually leaving unnecessary items (like a tent) on the ground while we do the actual climbing. We won’t go out in dangerously bad weather, but we do get heavy snow and wind on occasion. Almost no camping out to await good weather, mostly a weekend warrior.
Might be going for more adventurous routes this winter where the tent will stay in the pack or be carried over more technical terrain or for longer than 1-2 nights, but that’s what most of my winter alpine has been like so far.

I definitely agree that the Salida won't hold up in times of high snow or wind; but I also try not to go alpine climbing as a weekend warrior in those conditions, so it might be possible to mostly avoid them, if you're a fair-weather climber like me.

For a 3 hour approach on a moderate trail, I think that the sky's effectively the limit on how comfy and burly (i.e. heavy) you want your tent to be.  A big 6+ pound double-wall 3 person 4-season tent is not a big deal to carry on a short approach like that.  I resort to the lightweight bivy tents (like a Firstlight) when the approach is long or I have to carry it up something steep, both of which don't seem to be the case here.

You may also consider the tent to be an investment towards what you might want to use it for in the future, since your current needs are not too decisive.  Something like a BD Eldorado is a bit beefier than a Firstlight but still not totally gigantic.

People seem to love or hate the single wall bivy tents.  Maybe someone you know has a Firstlight (or similar) that you can borrow to see if you hate it?

FWIW, Firstlights are 25% off at BD and BC.

Kyle Tarry wrote:

I definitely agree that the Salida won't hold up in times of high snow or wind; but I also try not to go alpine climbing as a weekend warrior in those conditions, so it might be possible to mostly avoid them, if you're a fair-weather climber like me.

We aim for fair weather, but sometimes the one weekend a month we can get into the mountains ends up being intense—not bad enough to cancel plans, but bad enough to require burliest equipment. So I’m trying to plan with that in mind.

You may also consider the tent to be an investment towards what you might want to use it for in the future, since your current needs are not too decisive.  Something like a BD Eldorado is a bit beefier than a Firstlight but still not totally gigantic.

That is a good way of putting it. I guess I am describing my most moderate scenario, the conditions I have tended to climb in the past three years as I have been starting out in the alpine. I am hoping to be doing more trips that require a longer approach and carrying gear on technical terrain, so that is a potential extended usage of the tent. But one of the things that is tripping me up is that when I compare the two double walls that I mentioned, they don’t actually seem to weigh significantly more than the single walls I mentioned. Of course the Firstlight and other bivy style tents will be significantly lighter, but because of the relatively wet climate in Japan, I’m afraid that kind of shelter would be too limited to be worth adding to my arsenal at this point. 

FWIW, Firstlights are 25% off at BD and BC.

That’s why I’m considering this now, even though I will have to wait several more months to use my shiny new winter camping gear   

AaronJ wrote:

But one of the things that is tripping me up is that when I compare the two double walls that I mentioned, they don’t actually seem to weigh significantly more than the single walls I mentioned. 

There's no free lunch :-) The BD (née Bibler) Eldorado is a proven bombshelter, I doubt Big Agnes or MSR can pack the same performance for similar weight while adding a second wall and all the associated bits.

Kyle Tarry wrote:

For a 3 hour approach on a moderate trail, I think that the sky's effectively the limit on how comfy and burly (i.e. heavy) you want your tent to be.  A big 6+ pound double-wall 3 person 4-season tent is not a big deal to carry on a short approach like that.  I resort to the lightweight bivy tents (like a Firstlight) when the approach is long or I have to carry it up something steep, both of which don't seem to be the case here.

Agreed. 

jdejace wrote:

There's no free lunch :-) The BD (née Bibler) Eldorado is a proven bombshelter, I doubt Big Agnes or MSR can pack the same performance for similar weight while adding a second wall and all the associated bits.

Ah, interesting. So perhaps the double wall tents I've mentioned, with their lower weights, would only be taking a small step away from the 3-season I've already got...which would explain why they're marketed as a ski touring tent (MSR Access) or a "3+-season" tent (Big Agnes Copper Spur Expedition). That makes it feel like there might be too much overlap between those and the tent I've already got. I'm not particularly interested in hauling around a 6+ lb. expedition base camp style tent, even for the moderate approach I described above, so maybe the single wall is the way to go after all. An investment in future, more intensive multi-day trips.

jdejace wrote:

There's no "correct" answer but for 1-2 nights I'd opt for weight savings and simplicity (ie a burly single wall). Even if conditions lend themselves to a condensation nightmare...it's only one night. I like my Rab Latok Mtn 2 if you want to throw another one on the shopping list. 

For 1 night with a good forecast I'd often prefer a bivy sack...less fuss.

The Latok Mountain 2 is actually sounding like a great option. I get the impression that stuff like the Advance Pro and the Firstlight don’t quite perform in the same class as the Eldo, but it’s a lot heavier...it sounds like the Latok Mountain 2 might actually achieve similar to the Eldo but at a lighter weight...

The Firstlight's biggest weakness IMO is no midpanel tieouts on the long side, that panel on any dome tent is like a sail in wind. 

The Advance looks pretty good to me. The external pole structure may not be quite as bomber as the BD/Rab, but probably the size helps make up for it (smaller surface area for the wind). It's too small for me (as is the Firstlight, or the I-Tent). 

The Latok (previously made by Integral Designs) and the Eldo are larger and have similar internal pole structure. They have both been around for a long time. The Latok uses a lighter, more breathable fabric (eVent) and so weighs a bit less. The Toddtex is bomber and while it doesn't breathe quite as well the felt backing does a good job handing condensation as far as 3L fabrics go. I bought the Rab for the weight savings and personally I like that they use well respected name brand components (eVent, 9.6mm DAC poles) but the BD would treat you well too. BD also has a mesh door and better vents so bit more versatile. 

jdejace wrote:

The Firstlight's biggest weakness IMO is no midpanel tieouts on the long side, that panel on any dome tent is like a sail in wind. 

The Advance looks pretty good to me. The external pole structure may not be quite as bomber as the BD/Rab, but probably the size helps make up for it (smaller surface area for the wind). It's too small for me (as is the Firstlight, or the I-Tent). 

The Latok (previously made by Integral Designs) and the Eldo are larger and have similar internal pole structure. They have both been around for a long time. The Latok uses a lighter, more breathable fabric (eVent) and so weighs a bit less. The Toddtex is bomber and while it doesn't breathe quite as well the felt backing does a good job handing condensation as far as 3L fabrics go. I bought the Rab for the weight savings and personally I like that they use well respected name brand components (eVent, 9.6mm DAC poles) but the BD would treat you well too. 

It seems like the Latok doesn’t have quite as many venting options as the BD, and also lacks a mesh door. (I expect that’s part of the weight savings.) Has this bothered you at all in your usage? Or does the breathability of the fabric make up for that? And I guess mesh doesn’t make a big difference if you’re only using it in winter anyway?

The value of the mesh depends on how you're going to use it.  Someone using a bivy tent in the Cascades or New England (or lower altitude in Alaska) would probably be really happy to have the mesh.  If you only use it in the snow, it won't matter.

Yeah the BD is a bit more versatile but I pretty much only use these tents on snow so I took the weight savings. I wanted the lightest I could fit in. I've not set both up next to each other and crawled in and out throughout the night to compare condensation, but I suspect the differences will not be game changing. At the end of the day there's only so much you can do with a single wall.

If you can fit in the smaller ones, the MH AC2 looks pretty good too. 

Edit: I can't post anymore due to MP rules, so here are my non-chronological thoughts on a post below. 

SinRopa wrote:

One of my favorite things about it is that the external poles are entirely encased in pole sleeves.  It’s much faster to set up than models with external clips (Advance Pro), and you can put it up in blinding snow without opening it up like tents with the interior pole design (Firstlight).

Yup, advantageous in active precip and I imagine that's why MH made that update from the Direkt 2. 

In heavy winds I think setting up from inside and being able to brace the tent during big gusts is nice especially solo, setup is when you are most susceptible to snapping a pole.

Kyle Tarry wrote:

The value of the mesh depends on how you're going to use it.  Someone using a bivy tent in the Cascades or New England (or lower altitude in Alaska) would probably be really happy to have the mesh.  If you only use it in the snow, it won't matter.

I don't find the Cascades very buggy (my experience there is limited to a couple of Spring/Summer trips every year and I've just done the usual touristy stuff, but I don't think that's an uncommon use case). In New England the altitude is such that there isn't a huge climatic difference between the trailhead and high camp, and shoulder seasons are pretty brief. My AK experience is limited to flying onto a glacier (also not an uncommon use case). So I agree, user dependent. 

Thanks for all the advice and tips, everybody. I ended up going with the Rab Latok Mountain 2. Is it snowing yet??

I actually had a couple of questions about how to use it. It’s my first single-wall tent, and I was kind of surprised to find there were no instructions or manual or anything included...

Am I right to guess that the loops on the sides and top are meant to control condensation?

Does it look like I’m using the pole Velcro straps right? Never encountered these double straps before.

Finally, any tips on efficient pitching and breaking down an interior pole design tent? I practiced tonight and got it up without too much trouble, and I’ll give it several more goes before trying it in the field, but it was a bit of a challenge.

Thanks again for all the helpful discussion and advice!

The loops are to anchor you on a small ledge. You pass a sling through the loop on the inside, and clip something from the sling to your harness. Outside you attach the loop to the anchor in whatever way you prefer. The idea is even if the tent is completely destroyed you'll still be tied to the mountain.