Questions about Presidential Traverse

This may be more of hiking-related than climbing-related, but I figured some climbers may be able to offer some insight here.

I'm planning to attempt the Presidential Traverse in a group of three the week after Thanksgiving. We'd like to go fast and light- possibly try to do it in a single push. We have seen a lot of conflicting information online. 

Are snowshoes required in early December (in addition to crampons)? For a group trying to move fast, is it more efficient to post-hole though the snowy sections and save weight, or would snowshoes help us move faster?

Is the threat of avalanches to be taken seriously? I have heard of avalanche deaths in the region, but carrying a shovel and probe seem like overkill, especially for a fast mission. We'll carry a satellite communicator and other emergency gear regardless.

Any other tips or suggestions are welcomed. Thanks!

As you would expect, it really depends on the season, as conditions could be particularly variable at that time of year---some years with little snow, but others could see an early season 'dump'. So you should very much keep an eye on what the weather has been doing the previous weeks (MT. Washington Observatory) as well, of course, as the short range forecast for the time of your trip. At that time of year you'll have to move very fast to get it done in a day (which is what I presume you mean by "in a single push"), so if there is any substantial snow below timberline, the time spent postholing would wreck your timetable and could be sufficiently exhausting to make you turn back. Be VERY careful going "fast and light" up there, especially during the winter season (which definitely includes the time you are planning your trip)---too many sad stories. 

In a 'normal' season avalanche danger should not be high on the Traverse at that time of year, but, again, keeping a 'remote eye' on what has been happening (and is predicted to happen) in terms of snowfall and other avalanche factors in the Presidentials is a crucial aspect of trip preparation.

Alan Rubin wrote:

As you would expect, it really depends on the season, as conditions could be particularly variable at that time of year---some years with little snow, but others could see an early season 'dump'. So you should very much keep an eye on what the weather has been doing the previous weeks (MT. Washington Observatory) as well, of course, as the short range forecast for the time of your trip. At that time of year you'll have to move very fast to get it done in a day (which is what I presume you mean by "in a single push"), so if there is any substantial snow below timberline, the time spent postholing would wreck your timetable and could be sufficiently exhausting to make you turn back. Be VERY careful going "fast and light" up there, especially during the winter season (which definitely includes the time you are planning your trip)---too many sad stories. 

In a 'normal' season avalanche danger should not be high on the Traverse at that time of year, but, again, keeping a 'remote eye' on what has been happening (and is predicted to happen) in terms of snowfall and other avalanche factors in the Presidentials is a crucial aspect of trip preparation.

This is really helpful- thank you. So it safe to assume that without an "early season dump" the snowshoes and avalanche gear can be skipped? Appreciate your insight. 

And yes, safety is our first priority. We won't go up unless the weather is perfect, and we have escape routes planned in case of anything unexpected.

It's really just going to depend. You're best bet is to monitor the weather as winter descends on the region and keep track of snowfall totals. You could also reach back out looking for a local update later in the year, but I personally wouldn't plan a trip around online hearsay.

I've definitely ice climbed in Tuckerman Ravine and Huntington Ravine before Thanksgiving . it most likely will be full-on winter up there so be prepared for it. check the weather forecast have the gear with you and make the decision whether or not to bring it at the trailhead. There's nothing more frustrating than leaving something that you need in the vehicle. And remember that an avalanche Beacon is really only a body retrieval tool.

Indeed! Love climbing the Tuck's Headwall in November.

Carter Ley wrote:

This is really helpful- thank you. So it safe to assume that without an "early season dump" the snowshoes and avalanche gear can be skipped?

When we did it bitd, it was later in the season - 3rd week of Jan. In that particular snow year, we never used the snowshoes above tree-line, but they were absolutely essential below. We broke trail up Airline to the Madison Hut - our first night as originally planned - after camping the night before at the trailhead. It took us all day just to get to tree line, where we set up camp. 

We had planned on 4 nights, took food for 8 days, and thanks to being pinned by storm at the Madison Hut for a day then another 36 hrs at Edmund Col, we completed in 7 days. Do not underestimate the effort, even with modern, lightweight gear. And at that time of year, daylight will be in short supply.

As others have said, it’s all conditions depending.

A bit of hyperbole but a buddy of mine, who is a beast, likes to advise “if you can’t do it in microspikes, you can’t do it ina day’

There is no avalanche terrain on the presidential traverese. So that's some stuff you don't need to worry about unless you get seriously lost. You should be prepared for potential full winter conditions and a lot of wind. 

As posted above, the ridge is typically wind-scoured. If you choose well traveled trails,  you can USUALLY do your ascent and descent on a packed trail without needing snowshoes. There are a lot hikers, even in winter. Hiking in the whites about 30 days per winter,  I use only microspikes about 75% of the time. Only snowshoes when I'm deliberately seeking out a less traveled path. Hiking crampons can be pretty nice when there has been rain, or a thaw then a freeze.  

Besides the cold and wind, sometimes visibility can be an issue.  The clouds can be thick. Goggles can help. But sometimes you get totally shut down because you simply can't see anything. My advice would be to stay in the area for a few days, do a couple hikes to evaluate trail conditions,  then choose a day with good weather for a good push.  In good conditions,  the presi traverse is a causal winter romp. In bad, well, it might be better to set your sights on a different objective . 

LRL wrote:

As others have said, it’s all conditions depending.

A bit of hyperbole but a buddy of mine, who is a beast, likes to advise “if you can’t do it in microspikes, you can’t do it ina day’

Wise words- hard to imagine wearing snowshoes for an entire presi and doing it with any speed whatsoever.  

~95% chance trail will be broken on Valley Way and down the Crawford Path if there's snow on the ground. Though it's true you might get unlucky and be the first up after a fresh early season dump which would definitely slow you down. Ridge itself is wind scoured and deep snow would be unusual. I wouldn't bring snow shoes any time of year, if I can't get up Valley Way in reasonable time without them I'd turn around. It's true that if for whatever reason you had to bail into eg the great gulf they'd sure be handy. I guess it's up to you whether you want to carry the 5lbs although I doubt you'll be wearing them. 

Which brings me to me next point. You really don't want to have to bail. Come with a backup hike planned if it's totally nuclear up there. Deep snow and avalanche are unlikely but you don't want to go up in constant 60+mph winds with <50ft visibility which are entirely plausible. 

Though you don't need avy gear or snowshoes, I would totally bring allllll the winter layers. Would be easy to get into trouble with hypothermia. 

This all makes a lot of sense. We're gonna be in the area for as long as possible to give ourselves flexibility with regards to a weather window. We'll bring snowshoes, evaluate the conditions at the time, and travel on broken trails. It's reassuring to hear that avalanche gear is not a necessity.

Thanks everybody.

The killers on the Presi Traverse are hypothermia, exhaustion, and getting lost (typically a combination of these). Avalanche is a non-issue. Early winter is when IME there's a max amount of ice on trails around treeline, so I'd maybe consider something beefier than microspikes.

First off - make sure you know how to white out navigate with map and compass and digital on your phone in airplane mode (I use a goal zero flip 20 for any needed charges).

Make certain you have goggles and full face coverings. You may certainly need them.

And if you have to bail anyway to the East there’s always the potential for avalanches based on what’s transpired weather wise. Lions Head summer trail closed last year in early December due to avalanches. Last year they didn’t start posting daily reports until January unfortunately.

Don‘t underestimate the physical aspect of a winter traverse.

EDIT - my first day up last year was December 15. Low of -7, 84 mph avg wind, 126 mph gust (all the historical data is available)

Arnav V wrote:

Not to take away from your point, but a portion of the lions head summer trail preemptively closes every single winter because of avalanche danger. They then open a lions head bypass route to get past the section with avalanche danger. It’s nothing special that it closed in early December, because that happens every year.

And yes, it’s sad that the avy reports are late now. Apparently it was due to budget constraints. 

Agreed but my point was if you have to bail to the East you could have avalanche problems. The Lions Head trail reference is a point in time that they plan their trip. That was why I conveyed that. 

Have you hiked the area in the summer?  If not, absolutely do not do it unless conditions are perfect.  I did the traverse in clouds and light snow, and lost the trail a couple of times (it was February so there was a lot of snow obscuring the trail and cairns in a few places above treeline).  It was only because I had hiked the crap out of the Presidentials in summer that I didnt end up lost.  If you are fit and have good conditions it isnt that hard of a day hike, but I would start really early and hike the below treeline approach in the dark with headlamps. 

Undoubtedly everyone who has posted here so far is more qualified than I. I only get a couple of winter hikes a year up in the Whites and have never done an overnight in the winter. I did want to suggest a book about the climber Kate Matrosova who died trying to do the Presidential traverse solo in a day in February of 2015(?). 

I thought it was really well written and I liked how it was kind of telling multiple stories as the timeline of the events took place using first hand accounts from other climbers in the area to hypothesize what Kate may have been doing and the conditions she may have been experiencing as the day progresses. Eventually the book goes into pretty great detail the mobilization of all SAR personnel in the area and their effort to rescue Kate. 

Definitely not trying to scare you off or anything but it was a pretty stark reminder of how quickly things can turn bad up there. It seems a huge factor Kate had against her which you will not is that she was by herself and didn't have someone to perhaps help temper ambitious when the weather and conditions were presenting just how hard her goal was going to be that day.

https://books.google.com/books/about/Where_You_ll_Find_Me.html?id=jj8FtAEACAAJ&source=kp_book_description

Sorry, not good with the whole link thing. This is the book:

Where You'll Find Me

Ghost Car wrote:

Sorry, not good with the whole link thing. This is the book:

Where You'll Find Me

According to the "official" account she wasn't tying to do the whole traverse but just the northern peaks,  Obviously  didn't end well.

Hopefully by now you have figured out that the actual current conditions trump the long term averages.  All the "I did this on this date" reports are just one off trip reports.  You need to know what  the conditions are currently.  That said - if there is an early season dump and you want to to weight things in your fast and light (No snowshoes)  favor - go after a weekend.  Weekend traffic will have broken out the Valley Way and Crawford Path.  Late November/early December is the toughest tine to go.  Almost minimal daylight and the snowfields (which offer fast micro spiking) have not consolidated yet.  Usually.....

Arnav V wrote:

For the Presi traverse, you don’t need crampons at all. There aren’t any super steep sections where crampons would be warranted, nor exposed slopes. Microspikes are all you could ever need. Snow shoes it depends on whether or not there’s been a recent snow dump. You’d normally expect above treeline to be wind scoured, but I’ve climbed on days where there were 2 feet of fresh powder. Took me 4 hours to get from the top of boot spur to the top of Washington on a day like that, where it was early season and it was 2 feet of powder right on top of ankle destroying rocks. In hindsight, I should have bailed, but oh well. Bring ski goggles and full face coverage in case of high winds. White out conditions are very common. Know what to do in a situation like that.

Also, while a Presi traverse is an awesome hike any time of the year, if you’re looking for the best conditions, best to come when there’s more substantial snowpack. March is especially good because you have daylight and clear skies and the entire snowpack of the past winter. Early season Presi traverse is likely to be icy rocks, or powder on top of rocks.

Get a very early start, aim to be at the top of Madison or maybe even Adams by sunrise, depending on your speed and snow conditions. If you aren’t that experienced over here, being caught above treeline in the dark, in winter, is likely to spell trouble. If you reach Washington and it’s too late in the day, or conditions are getting very bad, it would be prudent to descend via lions head to Pinkham notch. From there you could easily hitch to Appalachia.

One last thing to add. Soft shell jackets or windbreakers are an absolute necessity on this route in the winter. Even if you picked a good weather day, the wind speed will still be pretty high, 30+ mph. With hard shell jackets, you’ll work up a sweat doing all that uphill hiking. And in the winter, sweating is dangerous. With no jacket, you’ll freeze. With a soft shell, you’ll have wind protection and breathability. I personally use the OR Ferrosi. Cheap and bombproof, and a solid soft shell jacket. 

This is shit advice. There are plenty of spots on the traverse where microspikes are okay, but crampons are a much safer alternative. Also, there can be substantial snowpack early season. I’ve done lake of the clouds to wash in March and felt super sketched out without crampons because of the freeze thaw cycle. I’ve also done jewell up to gulfside over to Jefferson and then to wash in December on a super warm day and needed snowshoes because the snow was so soft. There’s not always going to be 30+ mile an hour winds either. And hitching is damn near impossible right now with covid. Basically this whole post is bad advice. 

Carter Ley wrote:

This may be more of hiking-related than climbing-related, but I figured some climbers may be able to offer some insight here.

I'm planning to attempt the Presidential Traverse in a group of three the week after Thanksgiving. We'd like to go fast and light- possibly try to do it in a single push. We have seen a lot of conflicting information online. 

Are snowshoes required in early December (in addition to crampons)? For a group trying to move fast, is it more efficient to post-hole though the snowy sections and save weight, or would snowshoes help us move faster?

Is the threat of avalanches to be taken seriously? I have heard of avalanche deaths in the region, but carrying a shovel and probe seem like overkill, especially for a fast mission. We'll carry a satellite communicator and other emergency gear regardless.

Any other tips or suggestions are welcomed. Thanks!

I’m not trying to sound like a dick, but if you’re honestly asking if post holing a 18.5 mile above tree line route is the faster way to travel, you shouldn’t do it. It’s serious above treeline in the whites. Visibility can be reduced to nothin very quickly. Storms roll in in a heartbeat. There are so many trail junctions up there that if you make a wrong turn, you end up on th opposite side of the mountain range. I’d hit the presi in the fall and get a feel for it. Then spend some time on lesser peaks in the winter to further get a feel for it. Then attempt it if you’re feeling confident.