Fiddlestick Amsteel + Multipitch Alpine Trad. YGD?

Hello wise council of internet people, 

No foreplay, just diving in

1/8” amsteel “braided dyneema” pullcord on a fiddlestick for bailing off multipitch alpine if weather turns sour?

Pros:

Lightweight, saves 4-5 lbs

Negative

Managing a 3mm dyneema cord

Fiddlestick fun factor of wriggling out of stone knot. Doesn’t seem probable thiugh

Potentially fiddle stick getting caught more than the knot on a simple knot block. Or the smaller dyneema line getting caught more.

My hunch would be that this is not common practice in mountaineering/trad multipitch because instead of the smooth sandstone waterfalls common to canyoneering there is well featured granite ready to jam up a fiddle stick.

Your wisdom and humorous jabs are greatly appreciated.

Might as well just get the Beal Escaper.

Beal escaper is the route I would go if this isn’t a good idea. 

fiddlesticks are really for ghosting a canyon, like say running a pristine canyon that you would not want to leave any trace of fixed gear to spoil that exquisite pristineness, and willing to accept extra risk to enable that traceless passage.  even within the realm of running canyons, it's not a standard device for routine procedures.  sure, people can practice using that down a popular canyon by forgoing established anchors, like in prep for running some remote canyon later on.  but if someone goes out of way to be fancy and keep using that regularly and ignore fixed anchor bolts and such, when the odds catch up and a bad accident happens, that person deserves all the ire that comes his or her way

fiddlestick setups can unravel, hence the higher risk that comes with its use.  one really needs to be attentive and meticulous when using it.  when bailing, people are often in a rush with compromised judgement and deteriorating physical conditions

Thanks Sean

but if someone goes out of way to be fancy and keep using that regularly and ignore fixed anchor bolts and such, when the odds catch up and a bad accident happens, that person deserves all the ire that comes his or her way 

Hey Sean, just thought I might throw in my two cents. I think the fiddlestick is a great tool and can be frequently used safely in many applications. I would agree with your statement that a fiddlestick is not standard practice in canyoneering, but it is not uncommon. In fact, I think it should be a more common practice. If used correctly, a fiddlestick is only slightly more dangerous that an standard rappel, and will not 'unravel' unless it was set up incorrectly. In addition to these reasons, I think it should become more standard practice because it does not damage the canyons like a standard double rope rappel. Using a fiddlestick almost entirely mitigates the rope grooves you see at almost every rappel station in a canyon.

As for your original question Alex. I have used a fiddlestick a few times in a climbing application. I think it works really well in a similar situation that a Beal Escaper would (long single pitch rappels to the ground). It allows for long rappels using a single rope with a lightweight 'pull cord'. I would definitely consider bringing a small Amsteel cord and fiddlestick into the mountains as an emergency rappel option, but wouldn't want to use it as my planned rappel option. This is because I believe that there are places where a fiddlestick could get caught or snagged (less likely to get caught than a Beal Escaper though). Along with that, it would be quite a hassle to continuously pull up 50+ meters of cord for each rappel when there are methods that would be faster if using 2 ropes (twin, half, single).

Fiddlesticks get stuck on climbing terrain. Canyons are typically much smoother. I have tried this, and it got stuck. 1/10 would not recommend. 

Chris Lile wrote:

I think the fiddlestick is a great tool and can be frequently used safely in many applications. I would agree with your statement that a fiddlestick is not standard practice in canyoneering, but it is not uncommon. In fact, I think it should be a more common practice. If used correctly, a fiddlestick is only slightly more dangerous that an standard rappel, and will not 'unravel' unless it was set up incorrectly. In addition to these reasons, I think it should become more standard practice because it does not damage the canyons like a standard double rope rappel. Using a fiddlestick almost entirely mitigates the rope grooves you see at almost every rappel station in a canyon.

that's a big "if" as incorrect setup is a major concern in fiddlestick use, including setting up correctly in adverse canyon conditions, and in the often stressful climbing bailing situ in question.  if you in particular feel that confident with the fiddlestick, then good for you.  but the reality is that the majority of canyon runners presently don't.  you can wish more people are as proficient as you and would be willing to choose that.  but many do see the higher risks that you're intent on minimizing

fiddlestick would lessen rap grooves, sure, a good thing, but that does come with higher risks, no matter how much you want to rationalize that it's "almost" just as safe.  the vast majority just don't see it that way.  the present consensus continues to favor fixed rap gear for popular canyons instd of removing those fixed gear to impose mandatory less impactful fiddlestick use.  i mean, what long list of popular canyons are slated to have their fixed rap gear removed to usher in the new age of the fiddlestick?  right, none

even if you safely fiddlestick your way down popular canyons a thousand times ignoring their fixed rap gear, if you mess up the very next time and get yourself or someone else hurt, you bet there will be widespread criticism, no matter how noble your aim to push for the switch to regular fiddlestick use

the present consensus continues to favor fixed rap gear for popular canyons instd of removing those fixed gear to impose mandatory less impactful fiddlestick use.  i mean, what long list of popular canyons are slated to have their fixed rap gear removed to usher in the new age of the fiddlestick?  right, none

I definitely agree with some of your statements, and I am not stressing the removal of fixed anchors in a canyon (although from an LNT standpoint this would be ideal). It is still possible to use a fiddlestick on these standard rap anchors you would find in a canyon. I almost find it easier to use a fiddlestick in these scenarios because you don't have to worry about the anchor being so far out/close to the edge to reduce rope grooves. With a fiddlestick your anchor can be higher up making it much easier to rappel

Either way, it is something that is inherently more dangerous than a standard double rope rappel, and you should learn to use this tool with someone that is experienced.

In response to the original question though... if you know how to use the fiddlestick, and are comfortable with it, I think it would make for a great tool to carry in the mountains for bailing. I believe that it can be light weight enough to carry for emergencies, and is less likely to get stuck than a Beal Escaper.

we all should strive for LNT when appropriate.  when a suitable new method comes along to further that, many would gladly learn and adopt that to improve on the LNT front

but as of today, the majority of canyoners are not on board with the fiddlestick as a common method to use regularly in place of fixed anchor gear that's been in accepted use for decades, nor to use it in the special supplemental way with fixed anchors like your crew does (by adding a higher risk link into the system for the sake of LNT for one party out of hundreds or thousands)

people aren't balking on the fiddlestick bec they're all too scared to try a new thing or too dumb to understand how it works.  many actually do understand, have assessed the added risks, and have concluded it's not worth it to them.  these are canyoners who are willing to rap via non-redundant single sling and link, as well as meat anchors and rock piles (that most climbers would cringe at).  but even they would rather pass on a rap anchor method that isn't actually fully solid

the stone knot is only "solid enough" for the fiddlestick to work, and only if correctly rigged.  correct knotting is a very big part of its safe use, not some detail that you can just declare as a given.  so statements like:

Chris Lile wrote:

If used correctly, a fiddlestick is only slightly more dangerous that an standard rappel, and will not 'unravel' unless it was set up incorrectly.

which must contain restrictive qualifiers like that, that's like someone saying he could shoot an apple off of anyone's head and could guarantee that no one would get hurt if he doesn't miss.  i hope every single person on MP can see the flaw in that, and would respond like, "no shit, Sherlock.  if you don't miss and could only hit the apple, of course the person under the apple would be safe, duh"

you're free to feel as good as you like about fiddlestick use.  but many have already decided no, to not trust their life to a single disassemble-able knot like that.  and it's actually quite reasonable for them to feel that

fiddlesticks have been in play for many years now.  it's not the first time someone gets the notion that it could be the fantastic key innovation that would pave the way for a grander future for the good of all canyonkind.  many have already gone through the various stages of that, and have moved on.  that is until someone new tries it, gets the same notion, but thinks that it's first time in the universe that has dawned on anyone, and pushes for the same recycled stuff again

don't get me wrong.  i do commend you for willing to use the fiddlestick.  i have, too.  neither of us have to.  but we like the challenge, see the benefits, the rewards, and are willing to take on the added risks.  it's great to ghost a canyon like never possible before, or to do remote ones and be able to leave it in its pristine state.  for specialized uses like that, it's great.  but to advocate it to become more common practice in popular canyons, that comes across like not just added risks, but more like contrived added risks.  and it's unnecessarily imposed risk that many have already said no to, that the tide won't change anytime soon on that to still usher in the new era of widespread fiddlestick canyoning