Rappelling with the Kong GiGi

So I recently picked up a Kong GiGi and I was looking through the instructions that come with the device. It specifies that the device should be set up in the below configuration for rappelling 

With the bottom carabiner attached to your belay loop. I was wondering if anyone had any information about why this is the recommended set up instead of something closer to an atc type device such as this

Any ideas or feedback would help! Thanks! 

did you try both and compare how they work for you? (just don't do it more than 1' from the ground)

I haven't tried it out yet. I wanted to ask first in case there was something safety wise I hadn't considered.

The top configuration looks like it might have some assisted-breaking-like capability, via the same mechanism as an atc guide in guide mode. You would definitely lose that with the bottom configuration because the carabiner is not being pulled into the device in the same way.

I don’t own the the device, just speculating. Maybe you can safely test it out and update with the result.

Alex Maiorella wrote:

The top configuration looks like it might have some assisted-breaking-like capability, via the same mechanism as an atc guide in guide mode. You would definitely lose that with the bottom configuration because the carabiner is not being pulled into the device in the same way.

I don’t own the the device, just speculating. Maybe you can safely test it out and update with the result.

That's not assisted braking as the same mechanism as the ATC-Guide. The top setup mimics the old carabiner brake bar or carabiner brake assembly for rappelling.

The reason for the top configuration over the bottom configuration is increased friction. The GiGi has longer slots than other devices to make it easier to pull rope in "guide-mode". Therefore, you need to set it up as in the upper photo to provide sufficient friction for rappelling. Try it both ways in a safe environment and you will see.

Second what wivanoff said. Additionally, the Gigi doesn't have a keeper loop, so with the bottom setup in theory the Gigi can get away from you in certain scenarios, although that's pretty unlikely.

Like wivanoff mentioned, the top method works on the same principle as the carabiner brake. In practice it gives a nice smooth rappel compare to using a regular ATC. For years I've been setting up my ATC-guide in a similar fashion because I like how smooth it is to rappel with. A side benefit of the top setup is that you don't need to take off your belay device to set up the rappel, so if you're doing multiple rappel in the dark with frozen fingers, you're less likely to drop your belay device. The downside to this set up is that you cannot easily pull in slack like with the regular ATC setup, for example to weigh your device before unclipping from the anchor. One way to mitigate this is to use both a short and long tether. On a PAS, this is simply a second biner on a closer loop.

As wivanoff said, it's about not having enough friction.  Don't use the bottom configuration.  

In the bottom configuration when you clip into the locking carabiner, the Gigi is at risk of flipping from a vertical to a horizontal orientation.  In this orientation the Gigi doesn't provide as much friction based on the angle that the ropes enter the bend.  

I don't have a ton of experience rapping with a Gigi but I've done it.  Even when used correctly it doesn't provide as much friction as an ATC or similar tube.  It's quite 'slippery.'  I'd recommend a third hand backup.  You can add a second blocking carabiner to add friction. 

Second photo, too, you’ll eventually drop the device when you go off rappel, as it’s not connected to you. And expect far less friction than a plaquette, so take your time first few rappels...super smooth, especially with a fat rope...you’ll dig it! 

coppolillo wrote:

Second photo, too, you’ll eventually drop the device when you go off rappel, as it’s not connected to you. And expect far less friction than a plaquette, so take your time first few rappels...super smooth, especially with a fat rope...you’ll dig it! 

This. I’ve rapped a ton with the camp version and the main benefit is that your device is attached to you the entire time during the rigging and unrigging regardless of how many raps you’re doing.  A lot of folks do this with atc guide/reverso style devices too for this reason. One thing I’ve found is that it tends to twist the ropes a bit more for some reason. I haven’t noticed more or less friction between the two setups with the same device. 

Edit to add: the thing you do have to watch is dropping the breaking carabiner if you ever rap off the ends of your ropes as it’s held in place solely by the ropes. This is a more common scenario than you might think and I’ve dropped one or two and almost dropped countless carabiners because of it. 

Best way rap with a Gigi is first photo, with an extension from harness to the bottom biner. Often, I put a second biner alongside the brake biner for added friction. The extension gives you lots of space for added leverage (friction) and for your backup if you use one. It is Extremely low friction and scary for the above mentioned reasons in pic 2. 

Thanks for all the comments and feedback everyone. I rapped on it today with an extension and a third hand in configuration 2. I didn’t really have a concern with the device getting away from me because as the device gets away, if you put any tension on the rope it’ll come back to you. I also felt that configuration 2 actually gave me more friction than configuration 1. My only guess at why this might be is that because I am pulling on the carabiner that is applying the friction because it is attached to me with my extension. This I am guessing creates a pinch between the bottom of the holes in the device and the carabiner, adding friction to the system. I felt very comfortable using the device in this way.

To address the device flipping, in the instructions that come with the device, when belaying two seconds, the device is set up with just a carabiner in the back holding loops in both ropes. The two ropes prevent the device from getting too disoriented as I understand it. If I were doing a single stand rappel, the device may be more at risk of becoming disoriented. I would not use the GiGi for a single strand rap.

Finally as far as dropping the plate on a rap, yeah that’s definitely a risk.  

If config 2 had insufficient friction, you could add another carabiner adjacent to the one already in place. Test it first because this would be hard to do on the fly. Andy Kirkpatrick mentions various methods of adding friction to a rappel rig in his book "Down" and this is one of them. The benefit of using config 2 is that the plate can be flipped into autoblock mode and then used to ascend the rope if necessary. When using config 2, you can also attach a carabiner to one of the ears and then to your extension/tether to prevent an accidental drop. This same additional carabiner can be used to flip the device into autoblock mode.

I understand these concerns in theory, but I've been rapping with a guide plate using a single biner for many years and have never felt concerned having about too little friction or losing the device. I always use a hollowblock as a prussik and usually extend the device.

Mitch, your DIY keeper cord looks great!

I also rappel with the GiGI in the lower configuration (i.e. only a single biner, clipped directly to my harness or extended with a sling).  I have been doing this for 11 years, hundreds if not thousands of rappels, never an issue.  99.5% of the time I use an autoblock third hand as a backup. 

On skinny ropes (probably sub 8.5mm) I'd add a second biner as discussed to add some comfort friction.

The notes about not having a keeper cord or anything to maintain control are 100% and it is just something to be accountable for at a rappel change over. I find it simple enough to pull slack, undo the biner, remove biner pull GiGi off rope, and immediately re-clip GiGi to biner, then drop the whole thing are am able to start doing whatever is next at the station. In theory this is exactly what I would with a normal ATC, however that is a slightly large physical manipulation to find the end hole on the GiGi vs. the keeper wire on the ATC. 

Hope this helps, 

Cheers,

Dave

Mitch L wrote:

I'm not sure if this photo is just demonstrative. If you bring up a follower like this on a single strand with thin rope, the the GiGi's wide slots could all too easily allow for the load and brank strands to swap over. It's not common, but every manufacturer is now warning about this. The accessory keeper cord you added won't stop that happening.
Clip the brake-carabiner to the Petzl Attache carabiner as well and arrange it well so that the rope runs over it or around the front, like this

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To the OP. Both methods will work fine. Try it out and you'll see the friction is very similar. If you want to play with friction then try the slotted side inwards, then outwards facing. Or, try different carabiner profiles, e.g. i-beam, round stock etc. An extra carabiner will change things too.
With one carabiner, the orientation is actually better and you need less gear, but you may drop your device more easily, but not really. The is less friction because the brake carabiner cannot move upward in the slots du to you being connected to it.
With two carabiners, the orientation is slightly worse, but you may not drop the device as quickly. With two, you can also change over to ascending in an emergency. Also with the brake carabiner now freed to move in the slots, there will be more friction. Pulling out slack at the anchor is now more awkward.

If you are going to top belay with this, then learn how to lower too. The release on this is instant and you need a re-direct an controlled release.

I prefer the lower (single) configuration, but on thinner ropes, would use two.

The GiGi is bare bones you need to get to know it. Test and learn both methods. If, in a given situation, you only have one carabiner, then do it that way. If there's a chance you may need to re-ascencd the rope, the do it with two. With skinny rope, two. 

Like Tepfer said, rapping ATC style works but it twists the hell out of the rope because the brake strands have to go around the unused clip-in loop. Just go brake bar style and it won't.

Mitch L wrote:

Guide mode belay, thanks Noel Z , this is indeed easier to setup

I would not recommend this arrangement.   I can’t find a video right now but the rope can still invert, depending on the size/shape of the carabiners involved.

This may be helpful:

https://youtu.be/MkkFmLoFcFc

Here's something to try on a single line rappel:

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/122916263/skinny-single-rope-rappel-with-kong-gigi-fly-like-a-gi-6

mbk wrote:

I would not recommend this arrangement.   I can’t find a video right now but the rope can still invert, depending on the size/shape of the carabiners involved.

I found this setup interesting over having the locking carabiner on both sides, as some rubbing can occur on the locking ring when seconding. Why would this setup still cause it to invert? From me it looks like it would prevent skinny robes inverting, as the locking carabiner is fixed in position.

Claus GJ wrote:

I found this setup interesting over having the locking carabiner on both sides, as some rubbing can occur on the locking ring when seconding. Why would this setup still cause it to invert? From me it looks like it would prevent skinny robes inverting, as the locking carabiner is fixed in position.

I still can't find the video I am thinking of, but even just a few seconds of fiddling with a well (i.e. poorly) chosen carabiner produced this failure mode (not actually an inversion):