Experiences with Collagen supplements

I was going to post this in an old thread, but decided to make a new one to share my testimony and hear others.

I am fairly injury prone, and I started taking Hörsts collagen shortly after he started producing it.  I have actually seen the formula change a couple or three times (it used to be much nastier and harder to dissolve) over the past year or so.  Anyway, since I started doing that, I have had a much easier time fighting back my bicep elbow tendinitis and shoulder impingement when they flair up.  I also managed to heal a pulley injury in about half the normal time, and nowadays, when I twinge or lightly pull something that takes me out for a few days, it doesn't affect me near as much as it used to.  I am generally injured long term less often, and find it easier for my fingers to recover after a hard workout.  I've been able to hangboard with more regularity without feeling like I am about to tear my fingers off.  

It's worth noting that I also perform the Hörst prehab protocol on most days, and I take 2-3 servings of the collagen per day (the amount he recommended to me in person, also the amount his company partners use)

Anyway, my experience with it has been very positive, but like anything, it could be a real good example of placebo.  If anyone else has an experience with collagen, good or bad, I'd love to hear it.

I’ve supplemented with various collagens in the past. No anecdotal evidence of any benefit and/or effects.

But now I’m laid up with a pretty bad torso muscle sprain (intercostal, abdominal and oblique pull) and I use the kitchen sink method: throw everything there is at the treatment. Using a collagen protein supp along with everything under the sun. Will it do anything? I don’t know. But it dissolves easily in my coffee, gives a protein boost in the AM, and it’s easier on my stomach than NSAIDs. 

“It's worth noting that I also perform the Hörst prehab protocol on most days”

This is highly likely to be the active ingredient. You could try a little experiment: stop taking the collegen but keep doing the exercises and see how you feel.

Great to see you’re getting better than average results! Personally I always feel encouraged (is it a placebo?) when taking supplements alongside treatment for injuries, but here’s more information on the topic if you’re interested!

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4915461/
This systematic review includes a good amount of clinical trials that show encouraging results from supplementation and tendonitis but none of them are really conclusive.
While collagen makes up a good amount of your tendons, taking the supplement doesn’t necessarily guarantee that you’re going to heal faster or better. 
Making sure you get enough vitamin c from foods like citrus, bell peppers, tomatoes, watermelons, and strawberries helps to build collagen and improve cartilage health.
Eating fruits and vegetables is going to ensure that you’re getting antioxidants that will reduce inflammation and possibly lower symptoms of pain.
Here’s another article I read that covers a lot without having to weed through all the scientific jargon. There’s a tldr; section at the end.
https://www.climbingnutrition.com/newsblog/4-things-that-wont-help-your-tendons-and-4-things-that-might/

If you have a significant other that could make your servings for you. So you could make it a "blind"esque experiment if they randomly stop putting in the collagen. That would be the only way to somewhat eliminate the placebo effect and analyze your performance. Just my 2 cents I'm not much for medical science. Lol. I must mention that I too include collagen in my daily supplements. I feel alot better overall since supplementing, but I'm taking so many different things, I cant tell.

duncan... wrote: This is highly likely to be the active ingredient. You could try a little experiment: stop taking the collegen but keep doing the exercises and see how you feel.

You may have a point, however the whole point of his prehab protocol is to attempt to put as much of the collagen you've taken that morning into your tendons as possible, through very light repetitive loading.  I can't really see it having an effect otherwise, other than maybe warming yourself up without working out.

Lauren Tovar wrote: While collagen makes up a good amount of your tendons, taking the supplement doesn’t necessarily guarantee that you’re going to heal faster or better.
Making sure you get enough vitamin c from foods like citrus, bell peppers, tomatoes, watermelons, and strawberries helps to build collagen and improve cartilage health.
Eating fruits and vegetables is going to ensure that you’re getting antioxidants that will reduce inflammation and possibly lower symptoms of pain.

That's something Hörst addresses with his collagen as well.  It has supposedly enough vitamin C to ensure proper absorption not just through digestion but also into your tendons.  It also contains antioxidants, although off the top of my head, I don't remember what exactly it was that is included in his formula in that way.  It's these things specifically that make his collagen different from other collagen supplements.  There are also a lot of other amino acids and secondary supplements, all for the purpose of maximizing collagen use within the body.  Now, maybe you could buy some cheap-o collagen from the grocer, and supplement with those other things individually things, and come out cheaper than the $40/can that Hörst's costs, but I feel that it's worth it to get the one that's been designed and portion controlled by his team of researchers.

I've been using it on training days and haven't noticed any effect.
OTOH, it's cheap and harmless, so no reason everyone shouldn't try it for themself.

IIRC, Horst's preparation just adds a small amount of Vitamin C and some leucine.
The latter, presumably to bring collagen closer to a complete protein.
Pretty easy to replicate on your own if you want to go to the trouble.

As best I understand, the idea of protein timing hasn't really panned out.
So it doesn't matter if you take protein supplements before or after workouts or whenever.
Therefor, I don't know that the added leucine would make much difference.

I do think increased daily protein has been helpful.
I use a cheap whey for this.

Still all just my anecdotal n of 1.

I've been using collagen, hyaluronic acid and vitamin C supplements for the last 40 days or so. Collagen is too early to tell research wise, I'm not super confident in its ability to work well but hyaluronic acid is very well studied, I'd recommend it.

I've got a few joints failing me. I take a supplement with  chondroitin, glucosamine, and tumeric. The rational part of me knows the evidence is stody and split at best. The hopeful, wishful idiot in me goes ahead anyway. Maybe it's just the placebo effect but I can still climb. Although weird sensations in the joint abound, I still haven't found doctors I feel  comfortable with for my shoulder, foot, or ankle (and it's only a matter of time before the knee is on the list too).

The other concern is that in the high, necessary doses of tumeric (the body doesn't uptake much), is the concern of interactions with other medications, which is mostly unknown.

can anyone point to me a study where they measure a pharmacokinetic or pharmacodynamic effect of orally-dosed collagen? 

A side bar to the collagen: Arnica. What’s the deal? Who has tried? Anecdotal evidence?

MP wrote: can anyone point to me a study where they measure a pharmacokinetic or pharmacodynamic effect of orally-dosed collagen? 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6891674/

This is just from a quick search but it looks like the bioavailability depends on the methods of processing/extraction of the collagen.

https://benthamopen.com/contents/pdf/TONUTRAJ/TONUTRAJ-8-29.pdf

This article follows the metabolism of hydrolyzed collagen and shows that it stays the longest in the deeper layer of skin(dermis) for up to 14 days.
So, supplementation may provide collagen but registered dietitians have recommended getting it through food sources like bone broth, egg whites and spiraling. Foods containing amino acids are needed for collagen production like eggs and meat. Again, foods containing vitamin c, zinc and copper promote collagen production.
This article goes into further details on what foods increase collagen and connective tissue development/repair! 
https://www.todaysdietitian.com/newarchives/0319p26.shtml

thanks lauren. I don't think your link has data on PK/PD of ingested collagen.

I don't feel like spending much time on this question, but quickly found this-- This paper here looks at the question in rats: https://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/jf5057502

As you would imagine for an ingested protein, the stuff ends up getting absorbed as di- and tri-peptides. Because of that,  I don't understand how ingestion of collagen should have a medical effect different than eating any other protein source.

matt

Personally, I've been eating a lot of gummy bears and my fingers feel fantastic.

Before taking Collagen type 2 my knees hurt just getting up to walk every morning, prior I was trying glucosamine. But if you stop glucosamine you immediately have failure. The Collagen type 2. Is  what has worked. Less pain. My hip bothers me, but if I quit it really bothers me. I am not advocating taking it because it is an animal product. Can't wait until they come up with something Vegan.  To work out on the hang board and the I use the Bo Flex. I like C4 and other pre work out junk. Protein prior to bed. Best way.

Ryan Pfleger wrote: Personally, I've been eating a lot of gummy bears and my fingers feel fantastic.

The only evidence that matters. 

If you actually want studies on this in humans the only person who is doing good studies is Dr kieth baar, he's the whole reason this thing has taken off and is why Eric horst has made his own. Dr baar has predominantly been using off the shelf beef gelatin and orange juice in his research so there's no need to use collagen powder other than convenience.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27852613/ a study on its effects in humans
A good summary on the more recent research on tendon health. 

I just eat a lot of chicken feet. Packed with collagen.

I use Eric Horsts collagen supplement and I definitely recommend it. That + pushups fixed my epicondylitis. Pull ups used to really bother my elbows but after taking that stuff I have no issues and am doing more pull ups with more weight than ever.  Also helping the finger strength I believe but that could simply be me doing a lot more finger boarding.

Note: it could be collagen in general as I was probably running a deficit but I like Horst's formula so... works for me.

Stephen L wrote: A side bar to the collagen: Arnica. What’s the deal? Who has tried? Anecdotal evidence?

Tried arnica in various forms over many years and have never noticed any effect whatsoever. Just my personal experience. I've heard others say it works...maybe it's just me.

I take non-Horsts collagen + vit C before my climbing sessions. I noticed my hands are not tightly sore(If that term makes sense) the next morning after a very hard session.