Can autolocking carabiners get unlocked and unclipped?

My gym has us clip a bigass autolocking carabineer, rather than tie in, for the top ropes. It's attached to a figure eight tied in the rope.

Now and then, there's a decided click while climbing, when the locking mechanism pops back where it's supposed to be. It can only make this noise when it is pushed and twisted, then released.

This happened a few times at an earlier point, when I had a big gun harness, at my old gym with the same setup. That harness had two super burly belay loops. I'm in a CAMP Jasper now, which is a single belay loop, but also burly.

I was wondering if this somehow happens when the carabineer is rattling up and down and engaging with the burly belay loop? As soon as it's weighted (or slack pulled tight enough), it clicks back. I haven't heard of others having this happen, so I assume it's the harness, and perhaps also how short I am? Maybe some other harness part?

Anyway, it's sorta disconcerting. I think it's still a one in a bazillion chance it could get unclipped entirely, but I'm curious if you guys have ideas on what's going on and if I should do anything.

New equipment, not stuck carabineers, and yes I always check they're locked.

Thanks!

Best, Helen

Sounds like a twist-lock?  If so, I don't trust them for this reason in addition to the risk on rappel where the rope may rub the locking mechanism enough to twist it open.  Admittedly a low risk but not encouraging none the less.

p zoobs wrote: Sounds like a twist-lock?  If so, I don't trust them for this reason in addition to the risk on rappel where the rope may rub the locking mechanism enough to twist it open.  Admittedly a low risk but not encouraging none the less.

These are similar to what you'd have on an auto belay, except that's always got tension on it from the cable.

H.

Hopefully it's a triple action locker and if so I'd think you should be ok. I do maintenance on them and I've never had one do anything weird but I sure as hell check them a couple times as I climb. The real risk from autobelays is forgetting to even clip in so if you avoid that fate you should be fine.

I wouldn't climb at a gym where they make you tie in with a biner

Hopefully it’s a triple-action autolocker, a simple twist-lock will open even easier than a screwgate. Things you can do to help mitigate the risk: always double-check that it has fully closed and locked, orient the gate away from you when applicable*, and ask your belayer to keep slight tension on the rope as much as possible to keep it oriented. (unless you’re lead climbing, but then you should definitely not be lead climbing on this set-up)

*some harnesses, particularly those intended for camps, gym rentals, ropes courses, etc that are more likely to use a clip-in than a tie-in, have a horizontally oriented belay/clip-in loop, in this case you should orient the biner gate out, so the gate won’t be able to rub against you. If you’re using your own climbing harness, it most likely has a vertically oriented gear loop, meaning the clip-in biner gate will face either left or right and orientation doesn’t matter.

I met a nice young woman, a Pilates teacher, who wanted to learn to climb. Her time was limited so I decided to get her started in a local gym. Using a set-up in my garage I taught her what she needed to know to pass her basic top-rope belay test. We went to the gym.

As she set up for the test she did perfectly, just what I’d taught her. But our test boy didn’t approve when she anchored to the mat with one locker, and to her belay device with another.
“It’s best to keep it simple, we’d prefer that you use one ‘biner instead of two.”

I interceded. “Why would you have her do something in the gym which is unwise outside?” He gave me a blank stare.

“Let’s say I’m leading above Romi here, and I come upon a loose flake. She’s on the ground anchored to a tree root, and belaying from the same ‘biner. I yell down to her to move out to the side in case the flake peels off. But she can’t release herself from the anchor without unlocking and opening the belay ‘biner…”

Why do gyms teach practices which are not considered to be acceptable in real climbing?? Out of doors one would never, ever clip to a knot in the end of the rope with any kind of carabiner. It’s called tying in for a reason.

Kristian Solem wrote: I met a nice young woman, a Pilates teacher, who wanted to learn to climb. Her time was limited so I decided to get her started in a local gym. Using a set-up in my garage I taught her what she needed to know to pass her basic top-rope belay test. We went to the gym.

As she set up for the test she did perfectly, just what I’d taught her. But our test boy didn’t approve when she anchored to the mat with one locker, and to her belay device with another.
“It’s best to keep it simple, we’d prefer that you use one ‘biner instead of two.”

I interceded. “Why would you have her do something in the gym which is unwise outside?” He gave me a blank stare.

“Let’s say I’m leading above Romi here, and I come upon a loose flake. She’s on the ground anchored to a tree root, and belaying from the same ‘biner. I yell down to her to move out to the side in case the flake peels off. But she can’t release herself from the anchor without unlocking and opening the belay ‘biner…”

Why do gyms teach practices which are not considered to be acceptable in real climbing?? Out of doors one would never, ever clip to a knot in the end of the rope with any kind of carabiner. It’s called tying in for a reason.

Yep. and that's why I said above I would never climb at a gym where you had to tie in with a biner.
BTW whatever happened to The PARTNER  SAFETYCHECK of each OTHER  before starting to climb??????

When you are climbing with Kris and or Guy you will get checked!

Mark Frumkin wrote: When you are climbing with Kris and or Guy you will get checked!

Yep. That's for sure. They are from the old skool like I am, and Guy is a Friend of mine. I may have climbed with Kris back in the 80s,
but I have climbed with hundreds of different climbers since I started climbing in 1964/65

joffy Jenkins wrote: This is common for autobelays but seems odd for top rope.
Is the rope tied to a biner? What stops the first kid from messing with the knot only for someone who had no idea what the knot should be to climb and it come undone?

From what I've seen: shrink tube.

It’s hard to say what is the clinking sound that you are hearing.

The clip-in setup is used with autobelays, I’ve seen this sort of thing done at some comps, and I’ve seen couple gyms with the setup you describe, too, when visiting random cities. Though not in a while.

I think this is safe enough, and I’ve even done it myself a few times when I was trying to do laps with short rest intervals, because that was the only way to keep changeover time low, so my partner and I could both do the laps.

But I think it is absolutely idiotic to have this setup as a default gym setup, and I would not want to climb in a gym with this kind of setup.

All the TR’a at our local gyms use auto lockers to tie in.

Old lady H wrote: I think it's still a one in a bazillion chance it could get unclipped entirely, but I'm curious if you guys have ideas on what's going on and if I should do anything.

Difficult to say - you did not provide information about auto-locker that is used in your gym. Even a cell phone photo would work.
Captive eye carabiners used on autobelayers do make funny noises when loaded suddenly.

As to unclipping - again, you did not provide enough information about the carabiner. I have difficult time imagining how a triple action autolocker, this is what is used for autobelayers, would unlock itself, and unclip from harness.

As to precautions you could take  - carry extra screw gate carabiner on your harness. If you see your main carabiner getting uncliped, you would be able to use your extra carabiner to reclip.

Tamiban Queen of CHAZ wrote: Hmm, I can't say whats happening based on your description, but the gym near me also has captive-eye triple locker steels pre-tied on every toprope. I went in one day and they had switched it all, no more tying in. I guess they got tired of belay testing people. I honestly think it's a really good business decision. I set topropes with 1 steel ansi triple locker as a masterpoint pretty often. I think the idea that a burly triple locker (slide, twist, open) will open unexpectedly as astronomical.

Btw is it a captive eye carabiner like this that's impossible to crossload? This is what my gym has on all the topropes. If it's just a regular carabiner with a figure 8, I think the change of crossloading, although small, is too high for it to be considered a safe primary connection for constant unmonitored use.

Yes, this, or the equivalent. Super burly. Push first, then twist to unlock. 

This is not uncommon at gyms. Yes, my preference is people learn to tie in, etc, but, this does simplify the process. I would add, it also has people accustomed to clipping something, so maybe it might help with autobelays, that consistency.

To whoever said you should never tie a knot and clip in with a carabineer, that's simply not correct. Doing exactly that, with an 8 on a bight, then clipping that to your belay loop, is a great way to clean an anchor and prepare to be lowered. You never go off belay. It's also how you can attach to the middle of the rope, as a third climber. I'm sure there are other applications, but those are the two I'm familiar with.

This is a great gym, brand new. They are definitely thinking toward both safety and education of climbers. Grading is pretty close to our local stuff outside. They have a ledge, with anchors, where multipitch can be taught. They have a section of "natural" wall with cracks and features, etc. All the owners are climbers who care passionately about our community. Their houses are mortgaged to build this gym. So, all the decisions are very carefully considered, both for safety and helping people learn climbing. 

Thanks for the input, guys! I'll at least carry a spare locker with me.

Best, Helen

No Dave that is not why we tie in! 

Kristian Solem wrote: I met a nice young woman, a Pilates teacher, who wanted to learn to climb. Her time was limited so I decided to get her started in a local gym. Using a set-up in my garage I taught her what she needed to know to pass her basic top-rope belay test. We went to the gym.

As she set up for the test she did perfectly, just what I’d taught her. But our test boy didn’t approve when she anchored to the mat with one locker, and to her belay device with another.
“It’s best to keep it simple, we’d prefer that you use one ‘biner instead of two.”

I interceded. “Why would you have her do something in the gym which is unwise outside?” He gave me a blank stare.

“Let’s say I’m leading above Romi here, and I come upon a loose flake. She’s on the ground anchored to a tree root, and belaying from the same ‘biner. I yell down to her to move out to the side in case the flake peels off. But she can’t release herself from the anchor without unlocking and opening the belay ‘biner…”

Why do gyms teach practices which are not considered to be acceptable in real climbing?? Out of doors one would never, ever clip to a knot in the end of the rope with any kind of carabiner. It’s called tying in for a reason.

Here's a better argument of why that's dumb: tri-loading that would undoubtedly occur in a lead fall if you're belaying through your anchor carabiner.  That's a better argument than "that's not what we do outside because maybe rockfall".  That's irrelevant to a gym environment.  (I'm not saying you're wrong, you're absolutely right, I'm just saying you had better ammo to throw at him.)  Also not sure why they required her (or maybe she chose?) to be anchored in for top rope belaying.  It's so, so easy to double-wrap your top ropes around the belay bar which defeats the purpose.  "To keep it simple", how about you stop using ground anchors in the first place as they're never necessary in a climbing gym?

To answer your final question, climbing gyms can do what they want.  Not everyone cares about getting people properly trained for outdoor climbing.  In fact, some explicitly say they don't want people climbing outside because it would make them spend less time in the gym.  I worked for a gym whose owner told me this.  I quit that day.  I now run a different gym and frequently get belay tests in which someone doesn't know how to tie a knot or load a belay device, and I feel bad for them.  I think it's a disservice, but then again, these are private businesses.

No, dave you miss understood what I'm saying. I'm saying we tie in for a reason.
Brian,  have you ever belayed a 350lb person?  That's why in the gym I anchor to the floor.
I weigh in at about 135-140 I have belayed a person closing in on 400lbs. I'm sure as hell not going to be in that system.

Really Dave, as a machinist/tool & die maker let me say all mechanical things fail. By adding one more step you add at least one more failure point. A biner between you and your rope has three failure points instead of one.
Also and more important to me is that f----ing thing will catch on anything it can. & it will do it on purpose. It won't do it on easy stuff but when you are at a crux and need to reach as high as you can it will get stuck on something.

Mark Frumkin wrote: It won't do it on easy stuff but when you are at a crux and need to reach as high as you can it will get stuck on something.

I believe this is a law of thermodynamics :)

Seriously Moderate Climber wrote:

Here's a better argument of why that's dumb: tri-loading that would undoubtedly occur in a lead fall if you're belaying through your anchor carabiner.  That's a better argument than "that's not what we do outside because maybe rockfall".  That's irrelevant to a gym environment.  (I'm not saying you're wrong, you're absolutely right, I'm just saying you had better ammo to throw at him.)  Also not sure why they required her (or maybe she chose?) to be anchored in for top rope belaying.  It's so, so easy to double-wrap your top ropes around the belay bar which defeats the purpose.  "To keep it simple", how about you stop using ground anchors in the first place as they're never necessary in a climbing gym?

To answer your final question, climbing gyms can do what they want.  Not everyone cares about getting people properly trained for outdoor climbing.  In fact, some explicitly say they don't want people climbing outside because it would make them spend less time in the gym.  I worked for a gym whose owner told me this.  I quit that day.  I now run a different gym and frequently get belay tests in which someone doesn't know how to tie a knot or load a belay device, and I feel bad for them.  I think it's a disservice, but then again, these are private businesses.

The gym where I took Romi has a strap to clip for an anchor at the base of every route. Being that she clocked it at about 100, and I at about 145, I thought it a good idea for her to clip the strap. Honest toproping should be done with a little slack in the rope, so there will be a bit of a sudden upward pull in a fall.

Your point is good, that many gym climbers have no interest in climbing outside, and that some gym owners would prefer they don't. But the guy doing the belay test had no idea what her intentions for climbing were, so at the time I thought he was giving bad advice and decided to call him on it. It was fun to watch him rub neurons together as he grasped the situation I described. Perhaps an opening line like "The practices we use here for clipping to the rope and for belaying are best suited to the gym, but not for outdoor climbing."

Having thought it through I understand why a gym owner would worry about tie in mistakes vs. using a well designed carabiner, and the convenience of two or more climbers being able to switch over the rope quickly. Tying and re-tying that knot as fast as can be done is not a recipe for success. Having done 9.9999% of my climbing out of doors, I look at this stuff through a different lens. I cannot imagine taking a real lead fall with the rope tied to some carabiner clipped to my harness.