What is the definition to Flash a route?

Can you touch, feel, grab, crimp the holds on a route and then call it a flash ?

Yes but it wouldn't be an onsight

flash is first try, and it doesn't matter what you know about the route. Onsight is first try, but you don't know beta, holds, or anything. and really, onsight is only important in rope climbing (mostly).

"True" onsights are hard to get, in my ticklist an onsight is something i knew pretty much nothing about. maybe i happen to watch a dude do a few moves but thats it. I think real onsights are actually pretty freqeunt, since people use a lot of different beta for climbs and its really hard to see whats going on up there often times

OP, I would say yes, you can touch the holds, but no positioning or trying moves

Who cares. Just climb and have fun with it. 

You have to show the route your genitals before you climb to flash it

no                            

I'd say the only people that matter are the pros. What do they get away with? Peers are real in the climbing world. Just look at the Century Crack FA. Ondra seems to think touching holds and calling it a flash is fine. So, it's fine.

I’m not sure on this, I know some pro climbers rap down and place draws, not sure if they are actually feeling hold’s, my guess is no that’s not a flash.

Touching, brushing and inspecting is fine for a flash. Pulling off the ground would negate a flash attempt. 

Are you talking about rapping down and inspecting everything first, or do you mean checking out what holds you can from the ground?

Like MaJa said, it really only matters if you are getting paid for what people think you did while rock climbing. My feeling is that so long as you don't pull on or try moves, gain as much information as you can if the flash is your goal.

As an aside, can 'retro flash' and its good friend 'day flash' just die. You just repeated something you've done before, stop trying to pad your ego and contrive an opportunity to feel extra special and cool. Barf.

Xan Calonne wrote: 
As an aside, can 'retro flash' and its good friend 'day flash' just die. You just repeated something you've done before, stop trying to pad your ego and contrive an opportunity to feel extra special and cool. Barf.

“toprope lapped it clean, then came back and flashed” and “toprope flash” caused the current plague; change my mind 

Rules are actually pretty cut and dry, with one confusing aspect. You CAN touch the holds for a boulder problem you're attempting to flash, but you CANNOT touch the holds for a route you're attempting to flash. This is the most well-accepted standard by strong climbers. Adam ondra talks about this in some podcast (I can't remember which one), but I do know that in his latest Road to Tokyo video, as well as Jade flash video, he is touching the holds of the boulders before trying to flash them. Another weird idiosyncrasy is for flashing or even onsighting routes, you are allowed to downclimb from any point of the route to the ground IN A CONTROLLED FASHION (ie not dropping off), if you are able, and still preserve your flash or onsight. Thus, theoretically, you could try to flash a route, downclimb from halfway up to the ground, and return a year later when stronger and still flash the route. That is the only case where you can flash or onsight a route where you have touched the holds.

For those saying it doesn't matter, just go out and climb, I believe it is important to have a set of (as much so as possible) universally accepted rules concerning this; you can chose not to follow them and "just climb and have fun with it", which is perfectly reasonable. For the climbers at the top of the game flashing and onsighting climbs most climbers cannot even conceive of touching, it is important that there is a standard to be followed, so comparisons can be made.

I remember Matt Fultz claiming a flash on a boulder, with a disclaimer that he had tried to pull on when he was a young child, and Carlo Traversi (rightly) called him out and said that wasn't a flash because he had already tried it. If we start introducing grey area, it becomes difficult to draw the line, and standards are washed away.

Big Dick Johnson wrote: Even knowing the rating is beta, thus eliminates the onsight. A flash is just under that

if this is true, then wouldn't even having a guidebook erase any onsight attempts for any route in the book?

..which seems ridiculous. speaking to trad routes specifically, knowing the grade and having some idea of the pro to carry does not negate the onsight IMO. mind you, I'm not saying beta on every gear placement and knowing exactly what pro to carry down to the individual piece...that indeed would negate the onsight...but more along the lines of "finger sized gear with doubles of small offsets."  beta on that level seems appropriate for onsighting.

Nice, answers, thanks.

Onsight and flash both require your absolute best quality effort on your first try. Onsight trumps flash, but most climbers getting on a hard route assume they are going to work it before they even start. The quality of your first attempt is everything. If you don't get it, then go to work.

Succeed or not, I've always been satisfied by making a quality attempt. And disappointed when I don't.

You only get one chance to do it first try. Go for it. Every time.

I know, experienced sport climbers at places like Rifle will tell you that my approach is stupid, you will blow yourself out and be less productive for the rest of the day. 

Jason Giblin wrote: You CAN touch the holds for a boulder problem you're attempting to flash, but you CANNOT touch the holds for a route you're attempting to flash. This is the most well-accepted standard by strong climbers. Adam ondra talks about this in some podcast (I can't remember which one), but I do know that in his latest Road to Tokyo video, as well as Jade flash video, he is touching the holds of the boulders before trying to flash them. Another weird idiosyncrasy is for flashing or even onsighting routes, you are allowed to downclimb from any point of the route to the ground IN A CONTROLLED FASHION (ie not dropping off), if you are able, and still preserve your flash or onsight. 

Since we are talking about Adam Ondra & his Olympic dreams, the IFSC definition of a flash is pretty cut & dry: you CAN touch the start holds only, but pulling on them would be considered an attempt. If you leave the ground, you definitely CANNOT down climb back to the ground and still count as one attempt. I've not followed his videos close enough to know if he applies a different definition for outdoor boulders.

reboot wrote:

Since we are talking about Adam Ondra & his Olympic dreams, the IFSC definition of a flash is pretty cut & dry: you CAN touch the start holds only, but pulling on them would be considered an attempt. If you leave the ground, you definitely CANNOT down climb back to the ground and still count as one attempt. I've not followed his videos close enough to know if he applies a different definition for outdoor boulders.

That’s true for IFSC and other competition climbing, that you can’t down climb back the the ground. Understandable, as that would make a poor show for the spectators. Like I said, this “loophole” is more of a fun idiosyncrasy than something regularly practiced on onsight/flash attempts. I think I have only ever downclimbed back to the start on 1 onsight attempt, I I didn’t even end up onsighting. I think it’s a fun bit of trivia

Jason 

I remember Matt Fultz claiming a flash on a boulder, with a disclaimer that he had tried to pull on when he was a young child, and Carlo Traversi (rightly) called him out and said that wasn't a flash because he had already tried it. If we start introducing grey area, it becomes difficult to draw the line, and standards are washed away.

  I would have to argue that one because when you're a whole lot taller than you used to be your body doesn't do the same thing in the same place. I was talking with a young kid last year and he used to be my size 4 foot 10 and he was saying how much easier The routes at the new were being 5 foot 2  then being 4 foot 10 . 4 in and they seemed like completely different routes to him.

june m wrote:

  I would have to argue that one because when you're a whole lot taller than you used to be your body doesn't do the same thing in the same place. I was talking with a young kid last year and he used to be my size 4 foot 10 and he was saying how much easier The routes at the new were being 5 foot 2  then being 4 foot 10 . 4 in and they seemed like completely different routes to him.

Like I said earlier, once you start introducing grey areas, it becomes hard to know where to draw the line. How many years need to pass in between trying it for you to be able to flash it again? How much do you need to grow? Does it count if you gain or lose a significant amount of weight the last time you tried it? 4 inches may be enough to completely change the beta for the routes for him, but it doesn't change the fact that he climbed on them, felt the holds, tried the sequences, etc. I'm not gonna begrudge a kid for claiming a flash on something he climbed on years earlier, but if we are trying to develop standards for our sport, there has to be a set of rules. Not everyone who participates has to adhere to those rules when they claim a flash, but for a high profile climber, especially one who's job is literally to do the sport and publicize themselves, they need to follow the rules.

Another debate I have had with climbers is if it is possible to onsight a route when you have climbed another route that shares terrain. Many climbers say you can onsight it if it doesn't share the crux, but like I said above, once you start introducing grey areas, where do you draw the line? Exactly how much less difficult does the shared terrain have to be for you to still be able to onsight it? At what point do you have to just say, I've already climbed terrain on this route, this isn't an onsight.

I had a funny conversation/debate with a climber about the intricacies of flash/onsight ethics, and he told me a story about how he tried a route, and took a nasty inverted fall halfway up and ended up getting a really bad concussion. Due to the after-effects of the concussion, he was no longer able to even remember climbing that route due to short-term memory loss. He was joking about how he should still be able to onsight the route, having literally no memory of even climbing on the route. I didn't agree, like I said, the rules are pretty cut and dry. This is obviously a very rare situation and it was more of a funny banter than a serious debate.