Best Toprope anchor?

So I’m just now really getting into climbing but I have been on a couple guided climbs.  This summer I’m taking a trip out to Estes Park Colorado (not just for climbing) and I am going to try and get a lot of experience setting up a top rope and just learning how to climb without a guide.  I’ve already got a gri gri, harness, a few locking biners, about to buy a rope, and I’m going to buy shoes and rent helmets out there.  So now all I need to know is what exact top rope anchor I should use.  I have two Quickdraws as well that I could simply use with locking biners but I plan on only using that when the bolts are completely level with each other and when I wont get rope drag on rock.  But for situations where I should use a better, self equalizing anchor that could get me more extension and safety what anchor should I go to?  I’m leaning towards the quad because it seems simple and redundant.  Thoughts?

Thomas Dean wrote: So I’m just now really getting into climbing but I have been on a couple guided climbs.  This summer I’m taking a trip out to Estes Park Colorado (not just for climbing) and I am going to try and get a lot of experience setting up a top rope and just learning how to climb without a guide.  I’ve already got a gri gri, harness, a few locking biners, about to buy a rope, and I’m going to buy shoes and rent helmets out there.  So now all I need to know is what exact top rope anchor I should use.  I have two Quickdraws as well that I could simply use with locking biners but I plan on only using that when the bolts are completely level with each other and when I wont get rope drag on rock.  But for situations where I should use a better, self equalizing anchor that could get me more extension and safety what anchor should I go to?  I’m leaning towards the quad because it seems simple and redundant.  Thoughts?

The answer depends on the anchor features.  Bolts, Gear, Trees?

I strongly recommend buying "Climbing Anchors" from John Long.  This will answer most of your questions better than the peeps on MP.  Of course, after going through the book you could ask more specific anchor related questions.

For bolts there's many options that work. I say use the way that makes the most sense to you, so you are unlikely to screw up setting it up.That's really the only way a top rope anchor on bolts is going to fail, i.e. if you mess it up. It sounds like the quad makes sense to you, go ahead and use it. It's also a good choice for other reasons.

The quad is redundant and is one of the few options that actually equalize. Tests have shown anything with a static knot (like a cordelette) is going to put most of the force on one leg of the anchor. But on bolts that doesn't really matter. You just want it to be redundant.

The main place a quad won't work well is where you need to extend the anchor because the bolts are too far back from the edge of the face. You want the biners hanging over the face of the cliff so the rope is not dragging over the lip. In that case you'll want some long cord/rope or webbing. There are threads here with options for that.

Glowering wrote:The quad is redundant and is one of the few options that actually equalize. Tests have shown anything with a static knot (like a cordelette) is going to put most of the force on one leg of the anchor. But on bolts that doesn't really matter. You just want it to be redundant.

The main place a quad won't work well is where you need to extend the anchor because the bolts are too far back from the edge of the face. You want the biners hanging over the face of the cliff so the rope is not dragging over the lip. In that case you'll want some long cord/rope or webbing. There are threads here with options for that.

Yes the quad sounds great for me and that’s what I will probably end up doing.  But don’t you use a static cord with the ends tied together with a double fisherman’s for the quad?  

By "static knot" I mean like the powerpoint knot on this cordelette in the far right image (not the double fisherman's making the cord into a loop). Test have show this anchor isn't really "equalized". Most of the force goes onto one of the legs. And if you move side to side all the force goes on one leg because it doesn't adjust. But that's okay with bolts. A good thing about this is if one of the legs breaks there is no extension. But again with bolts nothing is breaking.

With a quad the powerpoint biners slide back and forth and very good equalization is achieved (close to 50/50 force to each leg). And if you move side to side it adjusts and equalizes. The trade off if one of the legs breaks it will extend before the biners are stopped by the knots on either side of them (in the picture below the quad would only extend a few inches).


Pics from: rei.com/learn/expert-advice… plus some other anchor examples.

Glowering wrote: By "static knot" I mean like the powerpoint knot on this cordelette in the far right image (not the double fisherman's making the cord into a loop). Test have show this anchor isn't really "equalized". Most of the force goes onto one of the legs. And if you move side to side all the force goes on one leg because it doesn't adjust. But that's okay with bolts. A good thing about this is if one of the legs breaks there is no extension. But again with bolts nothing is breaking.

With a quad the powerpoint biners slide back and forth and very good equalization is achieved (close to 50/50 force to each leg). And if you move side to side it adjusts and equalizes. The trade off if one of the legs breaks it will extend before the biners are stopped by the knots on either side of them (in the picture below the quad would only extend a few inches).

Pics from: rei.com/learn/expert-advice… plus some other anchor examples.

Oh you are absolutely right I didn’t realize that’s what you meant!  I’ve thought about using an anchor like the first picture you posted as well but the majority of anchors I will use only have two bolts and I feel safer with the equalization of the quad as long as I have the two overhand knots not too far from the main biners like you said.  One other question though, I’ve seen varying answers on length and diameter of cord I should buy for the quad?  What are your thoughts?  And would this same cord work for the first anchor you posted with the main PowerPoint knot?  Just trying to keep my options open!

I don't know about the length of cord for the quad, I've actually never used one. I've been climbing for a long time and they came into vogue long after I learned many other options. Like I said with 2 or more good bolts lots of options are fine. Maybe do some research on evaluating bolts to make sure they look good:e.g. climbing.com/skills/how-to-…  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckriqAAdOWs . I like the quad for beginners because it's simple and easy to visually check.

You don't want the overhand knots too close to the powerpoint biners because you would limit the ability of the quad to adapt to different bolt setups. In the pic above the bolts are the same height, but often one bolt is higher than the other. Or they are farther apart. You want some flexibility.

You may want to buy two cords (they're cheap, $0.50 a foot for 7mm nylon, so for 20 feet that's only $10) one for a quad and one for a cordelette to tie like the example above (for 3 bolts, or even two bolts spaced widely apart). It's best to learn a variety of options and use the best one for the situation. I think a lot of people leave their quad tied permanently because the overhand knots may be hard to untie after being weighted.

You want a 240 cm runner for a quad. 

Thomas Dean wrote: So I’m just now really getting into climbing but I have been on a couple guided climbs.  This summer I’m taking a trip out to Estes Park Colorado (not just for climbing) and I am going to try and get a lot of experience setting up a top rope and just learning how to climb without a guide.  I’ve already got a gri gri, harness, a few locking biners, about to buy a rope, and I’m going to buy shoes and rent helmets out there.  So now all I need to know is what exact top rope anchor I should use.  I have two Quickdraws as well that I could simply use with locking biners but I plan on only using that when the bolts are completely level with each other and when I wont get rope drag on rock.  But for situations where I should use a better, self equalizing anchor that could get me more extension and safety what anchor should I go to?  I’m leaning towards the quad because it seems simple and redundant.  Thoughts?

PM if you want all the How To Rock Climb Anchor books cheap ($20 + ship).  There are three, if I am not mistaken. "How to Rock Climb", "Climbing Anchors" and "More Climbing Anchors"

Another book I highly recommend is Duane Raleigh's "Knots and Ropes for Climbers", to get you familiar with all the different knots you should know.  

Does anyone actually stay on a route long enough to use a legitimate TR anchor? When I started climbing, I went and bought a 240cm sling so I could tie a quad and have it with me but I'm almost never on a route long enough to really use it. I now just end up using some locking draws if I'm feeling fastidious or normal draws on the chains if I'm not.

The best toprope anchor is one that doesnt fail.  
Watch some youtube and have a good time.  

Yes I probably overstated the effectiveness of the quad in typical situations.

It would be good to see the results of the experiments, not just the interpretation or theoretical numbers. I believe about 8 years ago when John Long's book came out with the quad he relayed the results of some experiments showing good equalization (or a better term is probably load sharing) and for a quad on two bolts of similar heights. Dependent on the friction of the materials used and the biners (large rope bearing surface biners are better). I believe a low friction pulley at the powerpoint achieved very close to 50/50.

I have also heard conflicting reports of how important shock loading is. I imagine a fall directly on the mostly static anchor material is a big difference from one leg failing during TRing with rope out. I think "How Not to Highline" has a video or is making a video on shock loading. He always prefaces his videos with "this is not science, this is just a quick look at some testing" but I put a lot more stock in that than in theory without any tests to back it up.

Like I said previously I've never used a quad, it just seems like a good idea. But perhaps we are back to the cordelette as the best option for TR anchors. You could incoporate a biner into the knot to make it easier to untie. To me simplicity and ease of inspection are the most important factors because it's almost always human error leading to an accident.

Here's the video on shock loading: youtube.com/watch?v=nr3YBDn…

At 11:30 he shock loads a 48" sling in a sliding X with no limiter knots directly at the anchor (no rope in the system).

Glowering wrote: Here's the video on shock loading: youtube.com/watch?v=nr3YBDn…

At 11:30 he shock loads a 48" sling in a sliding X with no limiter knots directly at the anchor (no rope in the system).

Clearly he didn't. If he did, as we all know, the anchor would literally explode into a thousand pieces. 

Thanks for the pdf link.

Going back to the OP question, IMO there isn’t a single best TR anchor. Because you will deal with multiple situations. As mentioned with bombproof bolts it doesn’t really matter what you use in terms of strength, load sharing, and extension.. So IMO the primary considerations are redundancy and simplicity so it doesn’t get messed up and is easy to inspect.

So IMO Now I’m thinking the quad is best for 2 bolts. And the cordellete style with a knot at the masterpoint for 3 bolts. You really should learn multiple ways to build an anchor so might as well start early and learn these  two simple and effective methods. Note: this is what makes sense to me, if something else looks simpler and easier to you that’s probably a better choice for you.

The quad is naturally well setup for two bolts, when they are a typical distance apart, maybe 1-2 feet. The PowerPoint will be where you want it about 2 feet below the bolts.

The cordellette naturally works well for 3 bolts 1-2 feet apart. The PowerPoint will be where you want.

The quad could be used on 3 bolts but it’s more complex to setup that way. The cordellette could be used on 2 bolts that are 1-2 feet apart but you’d have to double it up first (increasing complexity) or if you didn’t double it up the PowerPoint may be lower than you want it. 

For bolts far apart I’d recommend the cordellette. For two bolts maybe 3-5 feet apart you could tie it normally just with two legs instead of three. For 3 bolts far apart I’d still recommend the cordellette but use slings to extend the legs as needed.