Adhesive Database and general discussion

With all our conversations recently on adhesives, I thought it might be handy to start combining info into some form of a chart.  At some point I'll get it over onto a google doc but I threw this together this afternoon...  Input welcome (such as color, consistency or other columns that may be helpful).  Where ever I could, I pulled the data from the ESR report but some didn't have them (Liquid Roc 500 I can't seem to find) etc.  Price in NOT MSRP but what I can locate online shopping.  Of note, Hilti is almost always sourced off eBay but I only use pricing where there is time left before expiration.  With the TX heat here, epoxies are very much on my radar...

Edit - Made it a google doc so it's easier to update.  Most current can be found HERE
Edit#2 - very much a work in progress.  Per Jim's notes (and likely many more) what metrics are truly meaningful will be adjusted as I learn.  Bear with me...  My general take so far is any of these are "Good enough" and selection is based more on cost and working characteristics than ultimate strength.  

Thanks for starting this Matt! It's cool to see the bond strengths compared. I've used a fair amount of the A7+ and like how reliable the cure and working times are. I've had AC100 randomly set up on me a couple of times as well as the HY200 (trying to compare apples to apples here). I also really prefer hard sided delivery systems to the flimsy Hilti foil packs. The approaches in Alaska are fairly rough and I've had a couple package breaks despite my best protective efforts.

I've used the C6+ on job sites and I'd call it comparable to RE500 V3, but with a far more durable delivery system.

You might also post the numbers for the Simpson strong-tie adhesives. I've never used them but see them occasionally listed on spec sheets.

Great idea, thanks for starting this up Matt! I’ve been wishing there were a list of all recommended adhesives for climbing.  If you wouldn’t mind, having working and cure times for about 45F listed as well would be nice

Drew Nevius wrote: Great idea, thanks for starting this up Matt! I’ve been wishing there were a list of all recommended adhesives for climbing.  If you wouldn’t mind, having working and cure times for about 45F listed as well would be nice

Added Link to a google doc and reformatted some things to add lower temp and more options.  I need to dig into the reports more as not everyone lists ultimate failure and It's late to work backwards from load ratings.  Someday... I'm sure there are errors in it all so please correct and take it with a grain of salt.  Reading the reports there is not a lot of consistency across brands or even products!

Hilti Hit RE 100 has a bond strength of 3050psi. I think you need to dig deeper into it all and I mean much deeper! Because if you look at RE 500 the bond is given at 11,7MPa and the tensile at 49.3MPa whereas RE 100 gets 21 for bond and 11.7 for tensile. In other words RE 100 bonds twice as well but is 4 times weaker which seems curious. The clue might be the different ASTM test versions used.
Ultimately it's the shear strength that keeps  the bolt in anyway.

Jim Titt wrote: Hilti Hit RE 100 has a bond strength of 3050psi. I think you need to dig deeper into it all and I mean much deeper! Because if you look at RE 500 the bond is given at 11,7MPa and the tensile at 49.3MPa whereas RE 100 gets 21 for bond and 11.7 for tensile. In other words RE 100 bonds twice as well but is 4 times weaker which seems curious. The clue might be the different ASTM test versions used.
Ultimately it's the shear strength that keeps  the bolt in anyway.

That's what I was afraid of Jim.  I was pulling the PSI Tension for #3 rebar as that was a consistent metric across all the ESR and other reports.  When you say "shear" you're referring to the Adhesive shear strength correct?  eg the bolt ultimately bends and loads in tension and the glue's resistance to shearing is what holds the bolt in?  I simply didn't see (at first read through) a consistent "ultimate tension in xPSI concrete" metric across all the products.

The RE 100 loading with Eterna glue-ins was in tensile.

Obtained the same outcome in tensile loading to failure of Eterna's with RE 500 V3 - eye snapping at around 40kN in granite.

Bolt Products GP6-80-12A4 in granite with RE500 V3 cannot be extracted in the few tensile tests I've done. Eye deformation and that's about it.

Both fixings remain in the rock - the only difference is the titanium eye snaps eventually at high load.

Ditto for Gebofix EPO Plus RE pure epoxy.

mattm wrote:

That's what I was afraid of Jim.  I was pulling the PSI Tension for #3 rebar as that was a consistent metric across all the ESR and other reports.  When you say "shear" you're referring to the Adhesive shear strength correct?  eg the bolt ultimately bends and loads in tension and the glue's resistance to shearing is what holds the bolt in?  I simply didn't see (at first read through) a consistent "ultimate tension in xPSI concrete" metric across all the products.   

Well first off the ASTM bond test is nothing like anything we do, it's actually two 3" dia cylinders of concrete cast with each with one end at 60° ( the sharper way if you see what I mean). These are bonded together then tested in compression until the joint fails. I'd have to have a bit of a think whether this has anything to do with how bolts fail! 

The bond to the concrete (rock) isn't really of consequence to us unless the hole was very badly cleaned (where the resin characteristics aren't important anyway) AND in reality we know mostly the holes aren't really cleaned perfectly, the only way is washing them repeatedly. It's the roughness of the hole that keeps the resin from sliding out which is why as a rule diamond bored holes are a no-no.

The bond to the bolt is poor or worse, you are doing really well to get 5MPa and you won't get this bolting. In the workshop with a perfectly clean bolt you can actually hear the bond break as you load then, they make a noticeable bang and the load trace drops a bit. Then the shear strength takes over, basically when the resin in the engagement of the bolts shears off. When we design bolts and when they are certified any bonding effect is ignored, only mechanical engagement is permitted in the standard. As the bond is likely to fail over time anyway this is the only long- term guarantee of reliability, we have actually suggested that the certification test is carried out with the bolt treated with release spray to ensure this is so but this isn't a real popular idea! That ultimately the strength of the installation depends on the shear strength of the morter is why I certify my bolts with quick-setting cement, polyester, vinylester and epoxy resin and personally think epoxy is generally wasted money.

One problem I've had and I'm wondering if anyone else has experienced this. Using the A7+ on very hot days (90+) I've experienced very quick setup times to the point of only getting one bolt in halfway before setting. 

gso Orton wrote: One problem I've had and I'm wondering if anyone else has experienced this. Using the A7+ on very hot days (90+) I've experienced very quick setup times to the point of only getting one bolt in halfway before setting. 

This is definitely a thing with A7+ and AC100. If you plan on using a quick cure adhesive on hot days it's best to keep the cartridge cool until time to glue.

C Williams wrote:

This is definitely a thing with A7+ and AC100. If you plan on using a quick cure adhesive on hot days it's best to keep the cartridge cool until time to glue.

I experienced that last Oct in TN when it was 95 F every day for a week. I will postpone my trip as the solution next time.

Turning this into a more general adhesive chat too.  I picked up some G5+ as this was a cost effective epoxy with nice gel times for the heat.  I also ordered some A24s nozzles as I needed a few extra for the A7+ and the product sheet says it works with G5+ too.  Some interesting findings....

One - Nozzles are all over the map and I have some concerns about what appears to be the CURRENT a24s.

L: The current nozzle that ships with A7+  M: Old nozzles I have remains from A7 days, R: What I think is the current A24s from RedHead.

Note how short the mixing elements are in the far right A24s.

RedHeads catalog pages make it look like the A24s is GTG with the A7+ and confusingly, has mixed info for G5+.  It's pictured in one catalog page but not included in on a different ordering page.

  

G5+ in 15oz seems to ship with an S55 Nozzle.

So I decided to test the A24s (far right) one on both and see...  Temps in TX were mid to upper 80s, lows over night hit 63.



G5+ - It didn't look like is was getting a full mix to me.  I mixed the lower part of the bead around a bit more with the nozzle tip.  If you look closely you can see a slight change in color where the bead is smeared and flat.  After 20 hrs, the upper bead was still soft in places (I could squish it) and the surface remains tacky.  The lower part that I mixed a bit more with the tip seemed to have had a full cure.  Glassy surface and not tacky at all.

A7+ - you can see the mix improving top to bottom.  I still had concerns with the mix here as well but the lower bead set up just fine and was hard after an hour.  

Conclusion - the G5+ needs the extra mixing length and the really short A24s nozzles are a no go.  A7+ appears to be ok with the really short ones but I'd still stick to the one it ships with if possible.  Gel time is super short so be quick or use a different product.

More to come...

mattm wrote: G5+ - It didn't look like is was getting a full mix to me.  I mixed the lower part of the bead around a bit more with the nozzle tip.  If you look closely you can see a slight change in color where the bead is smeared and flat.  After 20 hrs, the upper bead was still soft in places (I could squish it) and the surface remains tacky.  The lower part that I mixed a bit more with the tip seemed to have had a full cure.  Glassy surface and not tacky at all.

A lot of people are tired of me recommending Hilti RE500, and many poo-poo it because of the bright red color, but let me say here that that makes it really easy to see if it's mixed completely!   Just sayin'...

John Byrnes wrote: A lot of people are tired of me recommending Hilti RE500, and many poo-poo it because of the bright red color, but let me say here that that makes it really easy to see if it's mixed completely!   Just sayin'...

I have and use the RE500v3 (usually when I find it fresh on eBay) but the G5+ at $15 was a draw.  I think this is on the nozzle more than anything.  The longer nozzles are just fine.

Those original  A7 nozzels made too much sense. Mixing elements nearly the full length. Minimum waste between nozzel change.

I always spin and vibrate the bolt with the intention of filling any voids, mixing any inconsistencies in the epoxy and any residual dust. Personal superstition without evidence that it makes a difference. 

Looking through the database I was curious that I didn’t find anything regarding Simpson strong-tie products as they’re relatively cheap and available at any Home Depot. 

Specifically the SET-XP, AT-XP, and SET 3G products. Just wondering how they stack up against the more popular products used for anchoring stainless rod bolts of varying types. I need anchoring adhesives for dummies apparently! If it’s garbage, then that should be put out there as I have heard of people using this stuff more than once on glue-in bolts.

Matthew Jaggers wrote:

No evidence of it being sub par, but I wouldnt use anything that isnt designed for "Cracked Concrete". Every quality glue that has been tested has this qualification, and anything without, I'd imagine is weaker and is to be avoided. Again, I have no evidence, but just a gut instinct.

The three mentioned are all certified for cracked and uncracked concrete, not that it is of any real interest to us anyway.

Jim Titt wrote:

The three mentioned are all certified for cracked and uncracked concrete, not that it is of any real interest to us anyway.

So how does the stuff stack up compared to the other epoxies mentioned in this thread. I only ask because it would be very convenient if it were a decent choice. I’ve used it in construction before. 

Never used them, they don't sell here and I don't use epoxy anyway but there's no reason to think they aren't as good as anything else.

Salamanizer Ski wrote:

So how does the stuff stack up compared to the other epoxies mentioned in this thread. I only ask because it would be very convenient if it were a decent choice. I’ve used it in construction before. 

As Jim notes, it's "good enough".  RedHead Marketing would tell you it's inferior to their stuff but hard to make 1:1 comparison as they rarely do that.  I prefer A7 / G5 simply because I can find it cheaper and it seems to have better QC than the others (less faulty tubes etc) based mainly on anecdotal stories on here.  I'd use the stuff if someone handed me a tube but if it's my $ being spent I'd go A7+ first and then AC100+.