Rope Anchor: Belayer cloved into first piece or masterpoint?

Question on procedure for a rope anchor:

Let's say I'm the leader. I climb up to a ledge, set a cam, clove into the cam with the rope. Then I place two more cams, pull up a little slack and build a rope anchor that connects all three pieces together with a figure 8 master. I put my DMM pivot on the master point in guide mode, call off belay, and start pulling up slack. Rope gets tight. I hear "that's me." I put my partner on belay directly from anchor, and they start to climb up to me.

Now... here's my question:

When swinging leads, I would normally take the follower off belaying directly from the anchor and lead belay directly from my harness. However, in the above configuration, I'm only cloved into one piece (even though it's technically backed up by the other two via the anchor), not the master point.

Should I re-clove into the master point before switching to lead belaying? Should I have re-cloved into the master point before bringing up my follower?

Am I overthinking this entirely?

Thanks in advance

If you construct your rope anchor "right" (see pic below for an example), then the first piece cloving turns into rigging attaching you to all the pieces, which I think is the right way for leader belays.  The depicted redirection point is strictly optional (I rarely use it myself).  Piece #1 is the piece originally cloved to.

CL, if you clove to the first piece with slack, just clove that section of rope back into the masterpoint with a locker, instead of using an alpine draw.  Uses less gear, stronger, more dynamic, etc.  That is, if you feel it's necessary to connect to the master point, which I don't think it necessarily is.

1. C L wrote: ^^^ That looks incredibly complicated and time consuming. Just do this:

The rope in my hand is slack and is what I'm tied into. Sling connects to my belay loop. 

I thought so, too; then I practiced it a few times, and  now I can easily construct it in a bit over a minute. 

CL's setup with kyle's suggestion of just using my strand of rope (instead of runner/PAS) is what I do most of the time.  Except for the guide mode belay.  I will typically use a re-direct of some sort, typically by climbing a bit past the belay and placing a first piece for the next pitch.

Thanks all. Appreciate the suggestions. 

Use the shelf instead. I place whoever is leading the next pitch on the shelf. If I am swing leading a climb, I place myself on the master point and the follower (on a Grigri or atc guide) on the shelf. If I am leading a whole climb. I place myself on the shelf every time and the follower on the master point. It helps me with the organization of things for less rope clusters. I am a fan of using cordelette for my anchors (which is a whole other debate in itself).

Edit: Just saw “rope anchor” on the OP. I clove to the master point if hanging or at least clip an extendable draw to the master point in case of a factor 2

C L wrote: ^^^ That looks incredibly complicated and time consuming. Just do this:

The rope in my hand is slack and is what I'm tied into. Sling connects to my belay loop.

***Edit to comment below since my post limit was reached after 2 comments (???):

Kyle, definitely possible. Though, at a hanging belay I will hang on the first (leftmost) clove while I tie the rest of the anchor, then call off belay. It's much harder to unweight 'my' strand, while leaving a free hand to tie another clove or alpine butterfly to the masterpoint if there isn't a good stance, which is why I use a draw.

It isn't complicated, it doesn't take noticeably longer than other methods, it connects the belayer to all three points rather than just one, it is more adjustable, it doesn't divide the load unequally by doubling strands on some pieces, and it adapts to every imaginable configuration.

I've never used RGold's setup, perhaps he can better explain the advantages as they are not readily apparent to me. 

I used standardized version that C L's picture shows. Except, I belay the second from the shelf. I clove myself to the master point with the rope.

Scott Dusek wrote: I've never used RGold's setup, perhaps he can better explain the advantages as they are not readily apparent to me.

I used standardized version that C L's picture shows. Except, I belay the second from the shelf. I clove myself to the master point with the rope.

The OP was particularly interested having the belayer not connected to just one piece with the others only coming into play with a shock load and displacement of the belayer,  and I posted a method that solves that problem. CL's rigging ignores  the question that started the thread. He also made a judgement based on no experience.  I did mention a bunch of advantages just above, but am not keen on getting into an anchor quibblefest, as most anything works most of the time anyway.     If you're interested,  actually try it out in varied circumstances and see if you like it.

My philosophy: the most important element of anchor building is to have bomber pieces, and if you have bomber pieces then the rigging doesn't matter so much.  I will sometimes just clove into 2 or 3 bomber pieces in series.  Probably my most common setup is to clove directly into piece 1, clove in series to piece 2, leave a small amount of extra rope between pieces 2&3 and make an overhand "masterpoint" from that extra rope, and use guide mode from the masterpoint.  For less than bomber situations I like the rgold method (though tying the alpine butterfly can be a pain if you're at crappy stance/hanging).

In short, if you have good pieces, then cloving only into 1 of them (directly) is fine.

Also, do a solid for the leader of the next pitch, and use some nuts instead of 3 cams.

rgold wrote:

The OP was particularly interested having the belayer not connected to just one piece with the others only coming into play with a shock load and displacement of the belayer,  and I posted a method that solves that problem. CL's rigging ignores  the question that started the thread. He also made a judgement based on no experience.  I did mention a bunch of advantages just above, but am not keen on getting into an anchor quibblefest, as most anything works most of the time anyway.     If you're interested,  actually try it out in varied circumstances and see if you like it.

I will definitely give it a try. Just wanted to mention that re-cloving into the master point with the rope does address the OP's concerns, you are now tethered to all of the pieces. 

Chris Fedorczak wrote:
Should I re-clove into the master point before switching to lead belaying? Should I have re-cloved into the master point before bringing up my follower?

Assuming you are using a setup like C L's picture ideally you should have cloved to the master point before bringing up the second. This is the last step before calling off-belay. If you are standing on a good ledge and belaying in guide mode then it is not very important to clove into the master point. 

When belaying a leader you MUST re-clove into master point in order to distribute force to all of the pieces.*

*The rare exception would be if you were standing on a good ledge AND "belaying the leader from a fixed point" directly off of the anchor with a munter hitch. This is an advanced technique that is rarely used in the USA. 

rgold wrote: If you construct your rope anchor "right" (see pic below for an example), then the first piece cloving turns into rigging attaching you to all the pieces, which I think is the right way for leader belays.  The depicted redirection point is strictly optional (I rarely use it myself).  Piece #1 is the piece originally cloved to.

RG, have you considered making knot 3 a girth hitch? For me (not a math whiz) I always get slowed down by the "upside down" clove. Minor pt I know. 

Scott Dusek wrote:

I will definitely give it a try. Just wanted to mention that re-cloving into the master point with the rope does address the OP's concerns, you are now tethered to all of the pieces. 

Re-cloving into the master point means you would have had to guesstimate the amount of slack in the original tie-in needed for that.  One of my operating principles for rigging is that if I have to guesstimate a length, it isn't going to be right some of the time, and leaving the belayer's tie-in loose enough to re-clove will be ok in some situations and not ok in others.  

Andy Wiesner wrote:

RG, have you considered making knot 3 a girth hitch? For me (not a math whiz) I always get slowed down by the "upside down" clove. Minor pt I know. 

Girth hitch would be fine there.  We didn't know about them when I made that illustration (which was 10+ years ago...)  I like to clip the rope to the carabiner, adjust it, and then throw on the loop that makes a clove hitch.  This feels a little different when you have to do it "upside-down," but I'd guess that 5 minutes of quarantine time devoted to practicing that orientation would eliminate the issue.

Also, my diagram says "butterfly knot" but a plain old overhand loop is fine.  Maybe the butterfly is better if you anticipate a lot of loading on the power point for some reason...

rgold wrote:

Girth hitch would be fine there.  We didn't know about them when I made that illustration (which was 10+ years ago...)  I like to clip the rope to the carabiner, adjust it, and then throw on the loop that makes a clove hitch.  This feels a little different when you have to do it "upside-down," but I'd guess that 5 minutes of quarantine time devoted to practicing that orientation would eliminate the issue.

Also, my diagram says "butterfly knot" but a plain old overhand loop is fine.  Maybe the butterfly is better if you anticipate a lot of loading on the power point for some reason...

I'll get to the upside down clove hitch a little later. I'm practicing the one-handed butterfly now (-:

Nailed it!

Andy Wiesner wrote:

Nailed it!

Nothing can stop you now!

Rurps optional

I see it now. I've actually used this system hahaha. Temporary bout of dyslexia I guess. It's very adjustable the way RGold's diagram shows it and breakdown is very quick and streamlined.

Good system, especially if the gear placements are far apart. As usual RGold is right...grumble, grumble, grumble.

Clove #3 could totally be a girth hitch. Hard to get any easier/faster than a girth hitch, you don't even have to open the gate of the the carabiner.