Rap Rings vs. Carabiner, revisited

I've been rapping off of rap rings for a long time, for the usual reasons: cheaper than leaving behind a carabiner, and lighter.

But now I can buy a carabiner (BD Miniwire; $4.46 at Moosejaw) for only 50 cents more than the cheapest rap ring that I would rap off of (GM 5-pack; $3.95 on Amazon). It weighs less than the rap ring. It does more than the rap ring. I can easily clip through existing tat, as well as my own webbing. 

Why would I continue to use rap rings?

Are folks uncomfortable that a single carabiner is not as closed a system as a rap ring?

A bit of tape can turn your non-locker into a "locked" carabiner.  Keep some on the inside of your helmet and you'll always be prepared.  

If you're putting these carabiners in a popular spot, they're going to get taken.  I guess it comes down to if you're placing these for yourself or if you're trying to make the station solid enough that folks don't feel the need to add their own equipment.  

Good tip about the tape.

I don't care if the carabiner get taken. The cost is (nearly) the same to me, whether they take my carabiner or my rap ring.

Given that the cost is almost the same, carabiners are as disposable as rap rings. Are rap rings obsolete?

Steven Davis wrote: Good tip about the tape.

I don't care if the carabiner get taken. The cost is (nearly) the same to me, whether they take my carabiner or my rap ring.

Given that the cost is almost the same, carabiners are as disposable as rap rings. Are rap rings obsolete?

Are you talking about a rappel at the end of a route/pitch? Or a bail anchor? If you’re getting down from a climb where others might need to do the same, I would expect a rap ring to stay in place longer. Other climbers will be more likely to add their own webbing/cord to the existing system if it looks rough, instead of building something new.

Honest people might see a rap ring and consider it fixed gear, where a carabiner is booty / bail gear. I would not take a rap ring from an established route, but if I came across a single carabiner on a sling...
Dishonest people might see a rap ring and be less willing to cut a rat nest for it, where a carabiner is a quick clip away from being on your harness. 

I've rapped off of a single biner before, but it was free hanging and would not be levered open by rubbing on the rock.

I personally would like a closed system like a link of chain or a rap ring, rather than a carabiner, to rap from if the route is well travelled, since you know the biner will be stolen.

If there is a rats nest with a ton of old tat, I usually cut that shit off(save any hardware) and put my own cord on it anyway. Usually at an established rappel there will be a rap ring or link of chain or a quick link, if there isn't, I carry a Metolius rap ring just for that purpose.

I can't give you a very good reason from a strength/safety standpoint why rapping off a single carabiner is safer than a single rap ring.

That being said, if I came to a rap station with 2 bolts, some tat, and a single biner, I would feel a bit uneasy about it and would definitely be thinking about adding a second, opposed biner.  I wouldn't think twice about the single rap ring.  

Steven Davis wrote: 
Given that the cost is almost the same, carabiners are as disposable as rap rings. Are rap rings obsolete?

Yes

Even on popular multipitch routes, it's better to leave 1 or 2 carabiners.
Ideally these would NOT be bootied, but considered part of the fixed hardware. It would be a great use for fat burly unwieldy old ovals and Ds. If there are 2, tape them to the cord/tat/chain, don't tape the gates closed. This is a reminder not to booty them.

If stations each had 2 (openable) carabiners on the hangers (hanging from 1 or 3 QLs to minimize twisting) or 2 openable carabiners hanging from chains or cord, the whole process of getting up and down routes would be faster and easier and safer, and wouldn't cost much more to set up. 

Jared Chrysostom wrote:

Are you talking about a rappel at the end of a route/pitch? 

Yes, that's what I'm talking about. 

I understand that some might see a rap ring as 'fixed gear' and a carabiner as booty.

Sam Skovgaard wrote:
That being said, if I came to a rap station with 2 bolts, some tat, and a single biner, I would feel a bit uneasy about it and would definitely be thinking about adding a second, opposed biner.  I wouldn't think twice about the single rap ring.  

You wouldn't think that the tat is the weak link? And if you decide to replace the tat? 

Not arguing, just trying to gain clarity.

No reason to use a rings over decent biners. Usually the rings have more metal on them, would take longer to groove or perhaps.
But the real reason: Unfortunately some ignorant folks think any biner left on a wall is “booty.” It’s a state of mind that really needs a sea change. Biners left at wall anchors are there for the community, much like the “cleaning biners” left on some really steep sport routes.
There’s a special spot place in figurative hell for people who “booty” that stuff.  

Actually, the cheapest option would be something like a Kong Oval QuickLink ($2 at MTN Shop).

But it's twice the weight of a BD MiniWire or rappel ring. Does slightly more than one thing.

Adam Fleming wrote: A bit of tape can turn your non-locker into a "locked" carabiner.  Keep some on the inside of your helmet and you'll always be prepared.  

If you're putting these carabiners in a popular spot, they're going to get taken.  I guess it comes down to if you're placing these for yourself or if you're trying to make the station solid enough that folks don't feel the need to add their own equipment.  

Yea, that's good beta. I usually carry tape, even in the alpine for emergency/medical purposes. 

I get the dual purpose nature of a biner, but my gloves, prussik and rap ring all ride on the same biner I clip to my haul loop.

The rap ring is really the best option to leave at a rap station. They are super beefy and will probably outlast you. They shouldn't get grooved just from a rope being pulled through them.

Buck Rio wrote: I get the dual purpose nature of a biner, but my gloves, prussik and rap ring all ride on the same biner I clip to my haul loop.

They are super beefy and will probably outlast you. They shouldn't get grooved just from a rope being pulled through them.

I get you, but I'm just not sure that longevity is the key issue for a piece of hardware that will be slung with webbing or cord outdoors. The webbing/cord will weather out long before the rap ring/carabiner wears out. Maybe at a super popular route, but that's not what I'm rapping off of. As always, it depends. . . 

A tangent-
A couple of the anchors we put in years ago on obscure routes  were 2 bolts, a sling and a biner.
When you go back in a few years the biner is gone because the sling wore through due high winds and rough rock.  

You can get 5/16" quick links for 75c, which is more or less the equivalent of a rap ring. 

Context is everything here.
If it's an area with some traffic, circular rings will last longer than quicklinks or biners because rings can rotate and don't concentrate the wear to one point. (Sometimes this doesn't work that well - we've all seen grooved rings.)
If you favor the convenience of biners, do it right and install steel biners or mussy hooks. And yes, if we're talking about durability then get rid of the tat all together.
What's the context of the route in OP? Two bolt anchor on single pitch? Tat on a tree? Bailing off stoppers on an alpine FA?

Z Winters wrote: 
What's the context of the route in OP? Two bolt anchor on single pitch? Tat on a tree? Bailing off stoppers on an alpine FA?

Mostly Cochise Stronghold (AZ), new or low-traffic routes. Boulders, horns, chicken heads, and trees. 

My recommendation would be to carry some quick links and rap rings.  Remove all the tat from the anchors and install the quick links and rap rings.  Now you have a much better and probably safer anchor which no one has to mess with for years.  And, you have given back to the climbing community to boot.

Steven Davis wrote:

Mostly Cochise Stronghold (AZ), new or low-traffic routes. Boulders, horns, chicken heads, and trees. 

In that case it seems prudent to steer this question towards CASA and see if they have any input. Tat becomes garbage pretty quickly but is accepted some places. I think connecting with the fixed anchor gurus at CASA would be a good move.