Question about second ice axe/tool

Hello,
I am getting into more serious mountaineering and have reached the point where I will start attempting coulier ascents of the 14ers in Colorado. As of right now, I own a raven axe I've used for basic ascents, but never done a full coulier.

I am therefore in the process of figuring out which axe/tool I should get as my second piece. I'm looking at the BD Viper, but I'm not sure if that's more than what I need. I have seen the venom listed as a common tool to be used, but I'm unsure of the difference matters a lot.

The reason I'm asking is because I have a friend willing to sell me a barely used viper for 100$ and want to know of I should pull the trigger on that or look vemoms instead.

Any advise is appreciated, 

Thank you 

The thing is that if you need 2 axes its because most of the time it is vertical enough that you need to be able to pull on your tools and therefore if you can only pull on one tool and not the other its gonna be either a struggle or right down impossible.
For what you suggest buying TWO Venom or Viper would be perfect, or their Petzl equivalent, Sum Tech or Quark.
Venom & Sum tech are lighter and ideal for hard mountaineering, Viper & Quark are heavier and more versatile if you encounter hard ice.

I'd disagree and say that it's very common in mountaineering to use one walking axe and one ice tool. I'd go for the viper rather than a venom to "future proof" yourself against having to shell out for a full pair of ice tools in the future if you get into harder stuff. You can remove the handles/grips to make it easier to plunge for more moderate routes.

Using a walking axe (like your raven) and a tool works well because on easy terrain where you are plunging you're generally fine with only having the walking axe out. You generally only need two axes if you are front pointing and daggering or swinging your tools, in which case a viper is going to be just as good (or better) than a venom. If you end up doing more steep stuff then it'll be worth getting a pair of more technical tools, but in the mean time using a walking axe and one tool is a good stepping stone. 

Tom Owain wrote: I'd disagree and say that it's very common in mountaineering to use one walking axe and one ice tool. I'd go for the viper rather than a venom to "future proof" yourself against having to shell out for a full pair of ice tools in the future if you get into harder stuff. You can remove the handles/grips to make it easier to plunge for more moderate routes.

Using a walking axe (like your raven) and a tool works well because on easy terrain where you are plunging you're generally fine with only having the walking axe out. You generally only need two axes if you are front pointing and daggering or swinging your tools, in which case a viper is going to be just as good (or better) than a venom. If you end up doing more steep stuff then it'll be worth getting a pair of more technical tools, but in the mean time using a walking axe and one tool is a good stepping stone. 

I have to agree with you for easier stuff. Indeed, you may end up buying 3 axes if you buy a Venom and then buy 2 Viper... If I could only buy one then I would buy a Viper/Quark

I personally own 2 Quark and does everything with it up to D

The first thing I will advise is to learn to utilize a single 60cm tool on steeper terrain before going to two tools. You will become much more competent. By steeper up to 50-55 degrees. I am not sure which couloirs you are looking at but many are not that steep overall to require two tools. A 60cm axe IMHO is the ideal length for most people in 5'8"-6' height.

Second, the main issue with the Viper is that you can not use it to plunge very well because of the pinky rest. Even after taking half the rest off. The Venom is better for plunging. Also the Viper is a 50 cm tool which is too short for general usage on lower angle terrain. The Venom comes as 50 cm or longer.

When I am on terrain that has long sections of lower angle but then also some steeper sections I take a 60cm axe and 50cm tool. That combo works nicely on big alpine routes on Rainier like Liberty Ridge and Sunset Ridge.

Maybe its just me but if I m only using one tool at a time then I m only taking one tool.
Yes, a technical tool may not be perfect for just walking or low angle slopes but it will work and I hate to carry dead weight, but again that s just me.
Alternatively, if you really insiste, you can compliment a Viper/Quark with a light carbon trekking pole, much lighter than carrying an extra tool.

Allen Sanderson wrote: The first thing I will advise is to learn to utilize a single 60cm tool on steeper terrain before going to two tools. You will become much more competent. By steeper up to 50-55 degrees. I am not sure which couloirs you are looking at but many are not that steep overall to require two tools. A 60cm axe IMHO is the ideal length for most people in 5'8"-6' height.

Second, the main issue with the Viper is that you can not use it to plunge very well because of the pinky rest. Even after taking half the rest off. The Venom is better for plunging. Also the Viper is a 50 cm tool which is too short for general usage on lower angle terrain. The Venom comes as 50 cm or longer.

When I am on terrain that has long sections of lower angle but then also some steeper sections I take a 60cm axe and 50cm tool. That combo works nicely on big alpine routes on Rainier like Liberty Ridge and Sunset Ridge.

Getting better at using one tool is not a bad idea, but I think usually by the time it's 50 degrees you will really want two. You might technically be able to do it, but generally I think you will move a lot quicker and feel more confident with two tools (or one walking axe and a tool) at those angles, especially if it's icy, and you often don't really know what conditions will be like when you start a route. 

I find the plunging issues are overrated. I use a quark rather than viper but think they're pretty similar. With the pinky rest off it plunges pretty well in soft snow, I've never had an issue with it off. For lower angle terrain I don't find the 50cm length an issue because in lower angle terrain I'm generally using a walking pole in one hand and axe in the other.

On routes like you're describing I sometimes use one longer axe and one shorter one too, but weight savings are the biggest advantage IMHO rather than security. 

Fabien M wrote:

I have to agree with you for easier stuff. Indeed, you may end up buying 3 axes if you buy a Venom and then buy 2 Viper... If I could only buy one then I would buy a Viper/Quark

I personally own 2 Quark and does everything with it up to D

I think we do agree! 

Backcountry.com has Vipers for $200.  They usually retail for around $250.  If the pick in your friend's tool is in good/new condition, then it's a good buy.  If it needs to be replaced, the new Vipers from Backcountry are worth consideration.

But that doesn't answer your question.  A technical tool isn't the best tool for low angle snow and ice, a hybrid like the Venom or Sumtec would perform better.  The type of terrain you're interested in a 51 cm Venom adze would perform well.  That can ultimately be paired with a Viper hammer if the terrain warrants.  If you begin climbing more technical ice, you'll buy a second ice tool.

Your technique should be such that you can move easily and comfortably on 60 degree terrain with 1 tool.  If you require 2 tools in this terrain, take some climbing lessons.

Ultimately, the traditional long shafted mountain axe is dead!  Easy to make the arguement.  These days, we tend to use trekking poles on low angle terrain- more comfy as we're upright.  A hybrid (like the Venom) is good when the going gets steeper as the tool can actually climb.  A long shafted axe is useless on flatter terrain and equally useless steeper terrain.  On a flat glacier, you'd be carrying the short Venom in one hand and a trekking pole in the other.

If you buy a Venom, buy as short as you can get- again, 51 cm.  More food for thought:  Whippet!  These things have a cult following (me included!).

ECD H wrote:
A technical tool will do basic stuff better than a basic tool will do technical stuff. Plan around the hardest part of the route.
For years I’ve  ever used more than a single pole and/or a pair of grivel master alloys (about as techy as things get), rarely wished for other.

While true one also needs be able to evaluate the overall need of the route. If the technical section is "short" and not "steep" then taking a technical tool will more than likely be overkill as a basic tool will more useful overall.

chris magness wrote: Ultimately, the traditional long shafted mountain axe is dead!  Easy to make the arguement.  These days, we tend to use trekking poles on low angle terrain- more comfy as we're upright.  A hybrid (like the Venom) is good when the going gets steeper as the tool can actually climb.  A long shafted axe is useless on flatter terrain and equally useless steeper terrain.  On a flat glacier, you'd be carrying the short Venom in one hand and a trekking pole in the other.

What do mean by the traditional long shafted mountain axe? If you are talking about anything over 60cm I would tend to agree (not withstanding those taller). However, the traditional axe is far from dead as there are huge number routes where an axe is needed for self arrest. A trekking pole is not going work, whippets are too specialized, and short technical tool is impractical.  As such, I think such a statement is conflating usages.

Allen Sanderson wrote: 

What do mean by the traditional long shafted mountain axe? If you are talking about anything over 60cm I would tend to agree (not withstanding those taller). However, the traditional axe is far from dead as there are huge number routes where an axe is needed for self arrest. A trekking pole is not going work, whippets are too specialized, and short technical tool is impractical.  As such, I think such a statement is conflating usages.

Nope, not conflating usages.  It's dead!  Anything over, say, 53 cm.

Yes, huge number of routes where an axe is needed for arrest and not self belay.  Those routes we tend to carry a trekking pole as we're upright.  A short hybrid axe is great for arrest in this type of terrain- there are even a slew of ultra-light ski mountaineering versions these days.  What's the point of anything longer?  You can't use a long straight shafted axe as a trekking pole, it won't climb steeper terrian (self belay or cane), and it sucks  at pounding pickets.  If, for some reason you clip the long axe to your harness, it reminds you it's there as it bangs your knee as you walk.  I retired my 60 cm axe years ago.  I carry my Whippet, Venoms, Cobras, or any combination of those tools.  Nomics for steep ice, rarely in the mountains.

Whippets aren't specialized- if I'm on flatter terrain and have need to protect against a fall, that's all I carry.  The construction of the head is such that it'll arrest in hard or soft snow (nothing will arrest a fall on ice) They're well worth considerstion.  Like I said, cult following.  

In short, the combination of a trekking pole (collapsable) and short hybrid axe have replaced the traditional long shafted mountain axe.

chris magness wrote:

Nope, not conflating usages.  It's dead!  Anything over, say, 53 cm.

Yes, huge number of routes where an axe is needed for arrest and not self belay.  Those routes we tend to carry a trekking pole as we're upright.  A short hybrid axe is great for arrest in this type of terrain- there are even a slew of ultra-light ski mountaineering versions these days.  What's the point of anything longer?  You can't use a long straight shafted axe as a trekking pole, it won't climb steeper terrian (self belay or cane), and it sucks  at pounding pickets.  If, for some reason you clip the long axe to your harness, it reminds you it's there as it bangs your knee as you walk.  I retired my 60 cm axe years ago.  I carry my Whippet, Venoms, Cobras, or any combination of those tools.  Nomics for steep ice, rarely in the mountains.

Whippets aren't specialized- if I'm on flat terrain and have need to protect against arrest, that's all I carry.  The construction of the head is such that it'll arrest in hard or soft snow (nothing will arrest a fall on ice) They're well worth considerstion.  Like I said, cult following.  

In short, the combination of a trekking pole (collapsable) and short hybrid axe have replaced the traditional long shafted mountain axe.

I agree with you, Quark is the least technical too I own and I think you can do a lot with it including not so technical stuff

Your mention of pickets reminded me that I need to start a dedicated thread on snow pickets. I never understood why everybody seems to be using it on your side of the pond and I never saw even one person using in in the alpes in 20 years of climbing (and NEVER myself felt the need for it)

chris magness wrote:

Nope, not conflating usages.  It's dead!  Anything over, say, 53 cm.

...
In short, the combination of a trekking pole (collapsable) and short hybrid axe have replaced the traditional long shafted mountain axe.

Okay I now understand what you are getting at, the hybrid axe has replaced the traditional shafted mountain axe but when used in combination with a pole.That I would agree with, as for decades now I have done the axe/pole shuffle as it is a very efficient technique. Depending on the route I use a 60cm or a 50cm axe. The key though is using them in combination because as you say it keeps you upright which is more efficient and faster.

The reason I'm asking is because I have a friend willing to sell me a barely used viper for 100$ and want to know of I should pull the trigger on that or look vemoms instead.

I'd buy the Viper from your friend. Why not? It's a great deal, and will be way better than than anything you're going to find in terms of price for venoms. And a Viper/Raven combo would be decent for something like the Notch Coulior on Longs in early summer. 

Any routes in particular you're looking to do? I hadn't found any couloirs on 14ers in CO that I felt needed an ice tool for, except for Notch Couloir on Longs. I could see a few other couloirs on the Longs massif that an ice tool would be nice, but even something like Lambslide can be done with just a reg. ice axe.

chris magness wrote: Backcountry.com has Vipers for $200.  They usually retail for around $250.  If the pick in your friend's tool is in good/new condition, then it's a good buy.  If it needs to be replaced, the new Vipers from Backcountry are worth consideration.

But that doesn't answer your question.  A technical tool isn't the best tool for low angle snow and ice, a hybrid like the Venom or Sumtec would perform better.  The type of terrain you're interested in a 51 cm Venom adze would perform well.  That can ultimately be paired with a Viper hammer if the terrain warrants.  If you begin climbing more technical ice, you'll buy a second ice tool.

Your technique should be such that you can move easily and comfortably on 60 degree terrain with 1 tool.  If you require 2 tools in this terrain, take some climbing lessons.

Ultimately, the traditional long shafted mountain axe is dead!  Easy to make the arguement.  These days, we tend to use trekking poles on low angle terrain- more comfy as we're upright.  A hybrid (like the Venom) is good when the going gets steeper as the tool can actually climb.  A long shafted axe is useless on flatter terrain and equally useless steeper terrain.  On a flat glacier, you'd be carrying the short Venom in one hand and a trekking pole in the other.

If you buy a Venom, buy as short as you can get- again, 51 cm.  More food for thought:  Whippet!  These things have a cult following (me included!).

Thank you so much for the advice. I have a few follow up questions to clarify. In terms of climbing lessons, are those specific too mountaineering or rock climbing, because I also rock climb often. With regards to the whippet do you have any suggestions for brand? 

Braden- was referring specifically to movement on low angle snow and ice; it's nothing like rock climbing.  Have witnessed a countless number of climbers struggle in this sort of terrain and excell on steep ice- I cringe when I see someone trying to climb grade 2 with a set of nomics!  Proficient low angle technique, and confidence (key!) in that technique, is far different from steep ice and any movement on rock.  A day out with a friend or a guide would help you tremendously.  Having someone critique you is well worth it the effort.  If you haven't had it already, formal self arrest training is also useful.

Whippets are made by BD.  There are two variations: carbon fiber and aluminum.  The carbon fiber is a two stage collapsible pole while the aluminum is single.  Go for carbon fiber: two stage collapsibility gives it more versatility (can be used as a cane in steeper terrain) and greater packability.

Edit: another thought.  Also would help you to pursue steeper ice.  Would keep
you safer if you could climb a bulge here and there should you encounter one.  Also, the style of mountain route you're interested in could ultimately lead you to a route like Ham and Eggs.

chris magness wrote: Braden- was referring specifically to movement on low angle snow and ice; it's nothing like rock climbing.  Have witnessed a countless number of climbers struggle in this sort of terrain and excell on steep ice- I cringe when I see someone trying to climb grade 2 with a set of nomics!  Proficient low angle technique, and confidence (key!) in that technique, is far different from steep ice and any movement on rock.  A day out with a friend or a guide would help you tremendously.  Having someone critique you is well worth it the effort.  If you haven't had it already, formal self arrest training is also useful.

Whippets are made by BD.  There are two variations: carbon fiber and aluminum.  The carbon fiber is a two stage collapsible pole while the aluminum is single.  Go for carbon fiber: two stage collapsibility gives it more versatility (can be used as a cane in steeper terrain) and greater packability.

Edit: another thought.  Also would help you to pursue steeper ice.  Would keep
you safer if you could climb a bulge here and there should you encounter one.  Also, the style of mountain route you're interested in could ultimately lead you to a route like Ham and Eggs.

From this it seems that I would in fact have a lot of the experience you've talked about luckily, took a formal self arrest class and also have experience on class 2 14ers, crampons technique and more importantly practice all three kinds (french, flat and mixed). I'll look into the whippets. Never imagined I'd get even one response to this thread so it's been amazing. Hoping to be able to one day give back and help others as everyone here has provided advice.