Climbing Grades and ranges.

So I just saw this video where someone described the 5.6- they were doing as a moderate route. Here on MP people constantly describe 5.7 as moderate.

I think
Novice: 5.0-5.8
Moderate: 5.8+ -5.12-
Advanced: 5.12-5.13
Elite: 5.13+ -- 5.15d

Thoughts ? Whats your scale?

Fun topic. For sport climbing I’d probably say:

5.0–5.6/5.7: Beginner.

5.7/5.8–5.10-: Climbing experience needed for average person.

5.10–5.11: Moderately skilled climber.

5.11+—5.12: Skilled climber. Some level of dedication to the sport over multiple years probably required.

5.12+—5.13: Highly skilled climber. Very dedicated to the sport. This is when you likely start to see a lot of people with dedicated training cycles that include things other than climbing (hangboard, campus board, etc.).

5.13+—5.14-: Advanced climber. Extremely few reach this stage.

5.14–5.15: Elite level. If you’re reading this plz PM training secrets.

I agree with Joel. I think each grade has an almost exponential increase in dedication to reach. Also worth noting, different areas are differing levels of softness. So maybe their 5.6- is stiffer in general. And although this should be included in the grade but sometimes isn't, if it's a long or risky route (think 200 ft or run out. Or both) that could contribute to its moderaty... moderateness? I dunno, but that

Cesar Cardenas wrote: 
Moderate: 5.8+ -5.12-

I am in this picture and I don't like it.

• <=5.8 = Novice
• 5.9-5.11 = Intermediate/Moderate
• 5.12-5.13- = Advanced
• 5.13-5.14 = Expert
• >5.14 = World Class

Functionally though it's more like

• <My Grade = Gumby/Novice
• My Grade = Expert
• >My Grade = World Class/No Life

I believe once you have found your plateau grade it is hard and takes significant dedication to pick up a grade.

I believe 5.6-7 is novice. Most people of the streets can climb this.
 
5.8-5.9 is beginner. Someone that has climbed for a month is typically climbing these grades.

5.10-5.11d is intermediate. I think the majority of climbers are at this grade and are stuck at this grade.  

5.12-13a is advanced climbing. It takes a lot of work and dedication to get here. Most climbers don’t climb this hard.

5.13-14 is really hard. This is what some of the strongest climbers climb!

5.15? Well your name must be Adam ondra, Alex Megos, Joey kinder, or johnathan Siegrist. (I’m probably missing a few) basically your the elite.

This is my sport grading. Trad grading is harder mentally and physically.

Aidan Mickleburgh wrote:Also worth noting, different areas are differing levels of softness. So maybe their 5.6- is stiffer in general. And although this should be included in the grade but sometimes isn't, if it's a long or risky route (think 200 ft or run out. Or both) that could contribute to its moderaty... moderateness? I dunno, but that

Kind of reminds me how I believe that different rock is harder to climb based on read-ability. Like all of the moves can be equally as hard but sand stone is easier to read then limestone.

Come climb yamnuska.  See what a 5.6 can be.  

Trad thoughts...  as a moderate sport climber transitioning to trad
5.4 to 5.6 having fun placing gear... no real consequence beginner or I call intro trad
5.7. Trad knowledge and experience learning how to push your gear, taking a bigger risk.  Moderate climber/climbing
5.8 going into the realm of real risk, route finding, scary moves, small gear or runouts. Moderate average trad climber
5.9/10.  Dedicated to climbing... take whips push your boundaries.   Got some balls! Advanced climbers
11/12.  Your a badass traddad with years of experience and you can send most routes carefree, lots of experience and mental development to get here. Expert climbers

13+.... yea you think that scary hard sport route you climbed was difficult?  remove the bolts chalk/ticks and add a few levels of difficulty from the yds... World class baby

There is no difference between trad and sport grades

Luca Keushguerian wrote: There is no difference between trad and sport grades

I agree that in terms of the physical difficulty of climbing the route, there is no difference. However, I would say that there is a difference in terms of the difficulty of progressing through the grades, as well as what the bell curve looks like of people at each grade. 

Luca Keushguerian wrote: There is no difference between trad and sport grades

I think this is something we should do again.

Routes are graded as a whole usually, not on the single move.

As a weak guy, I've always climbed at the upper limit of my power but made up for it with smart rests and (some years) endurance.

So for me, difficulty from easiest to hardest for a given grade above 10+. (Below that grade is a semi nonsensical world of historical grades, sandbags, route developers who climb 13 and can't tell the difference between 5.8 and 5.10, etc)

Hardest. Gym routes, no rest, steep, to the point. Only made easier by knowing exactly where the next hold is.

Middle. Sport. Many of the same reasons as the gym but frequently a rest can be had.

Easiest. Trad. Your aptitude for fidgety stuff, when to use gear and when to climb, and ability to assess what's on your rack vs what's above you all play into the grade. With proper experience, this is all mitigated and the movement isn't that hard.

Even easier fighting words. WI grades. Unless you're at Hemleken Falls, ice tends to be more about gear and fear than movement.

There are so many different types of climbs, it is really hard to say a 5.8 climb is for beginners.  My sporto buddies that climb 5.13 would be spanked on a 5.9 offwidth.  I could climb up to 5.11 cracks, but struggle on overhung jug hauls or crimpy technical climbs. I mostly climb trad, so it is hard for me to relate to sport climbing grades.

For trad climbing I would rate thusly:

5.0 to 5.6 - Apprentice, can probably climb 5.10 in the gym, but struggles a bit with the gear and systems of trad climbing. Should probably be climbing with a more experienced climber to gain confidence, experience and knowledge. 

5.7 to 5.10 -  Journeyman, know how to safely climb trad within their climbing ability, able to determine when they can safely push their boundaries on trad gear.  Many climbers top out here for trad.

5.11 and up - Expert, not only can handle all of the rigging and safety issues, they are pushing their own boundaries on scary/dangerous rock. Very confidant in their own abilities.

So much of the trad game is risk assessment and quieting the head games. Strong climbers are many times defeated by fear, looking down and not being able to see the last piece of gear and/or not trusting it.

Cesar Cardenas wrote: So I just saw this video where someone described the 5.6- they were doing as a moderate route. Here on MP people constantly describe 5.7 as moderate.

I think
Novice: 5.0-5.8
Moderate: 5.8+ -5.12-
Advanced: 5.12-5.13
Elite: 5.13+ -- 5.15d

Thoughts ? Whats your scale?

Cesar...... The NPS at one time was handing out a questioner one time and they used your scale. 

I had to point out the fact that I knew many folks who maybe climb 5.8 on a good day- but who are vastly better, safer and more experienced then some who can 5.12 but couldn’t rig a crevasse rescue. jess saying 

Not Hobo Greg wrote:

Go take a lead fall on most 5.4-5.6's and you'll learn there are consequences to falls in low angle terrain. You also seem to be confused by the distinction between difficulty grades (5.8) and danger ratings (R, X). A 5.8 could be scary and runout, or it could be safe and sewable. This also goes for routefinding, its not dependent on the YDS grade.

Sorry... that was a late night off the hip rough estimate of how I quickly put together my thoughts on the climbing grading for trad.  Yes there are the danger ratings as well and a lot of other factors to include.  It can be very broad.  I based it off my climbing area I started trad at, ELDO, which always feels harder than you think.  It feels like there those levels of progression are grouped together.  6s are easy there.  7 are real. 8s are pushing hard 9s and up it just starts to get scarier and scarier!  Lol.  

I dunno but I like the subject idea.  Trad grading is interesting
Because it also makes me question what I can climb pending on the area.  Like I'm leading eldo 8s, but at the creek 10s.  
See now we have different climbing styles now too to fuck with the ratings

I think regardless how you label all the grades, the main point of your post is valid, and I agree with it. Many climbers use the term "moderate" incorrectly. Moderate ≠ easy. Moderate routes are that narrow band of grades that you may or may not onsight. Cruiser routes that you have basically no real chance of falling on are "easy". No one falls on 5.5, and it is not moderate---it is easy. Most folks who climb weekly should call 5.10 or even 5.11 moderate.

Grades are 100% subjective! I agree with what was said above. I can climb a over hung jug hall all day long but the moment you put me on a off width chimney I wouldn't know what to do with myself. I also would not know what to do with those things of witch craft you call "big Bros"

Landon McDowell wrote: Grades are 100% subjective! I agree with what was said above. I can climb a over hung jug hall all day long but the moment you put me on a off width chimney I wouldn't know what to do with myself. I also would not know what to do with those things of witch craft you call "big Bros"

Big Bros are mental protection only in my opinion. They are great for putting at the lip of a roof crack to keep the rope from getting stuck, or to stand on for aid to get past a hard part if you are in a hurry. So you walk your big cam, and put in a big bro to leave behind as emergency gear to keep you from hitting the ground if you fuck up.

Are we talking US or europe?

There are lot more strong 5.12+ and up climbers in Europe so that would prolly be intermediate for them.

If you climb 5.12+ or 5.13 in America you are a god - LOLZ

5.0 - 5.8  Elementary school
5.9 - 5.10 High School graduate
5.11 - 5.12 College degree
5.13 Masters degree
5.14 Phd/doctorate
5.15 Leading world expert

This is the scale the International Rock Climbers Research Association advocates for studies