Home Wall - 45 or 60?

Designing a garage wall, the space has enough room for a 8x9 if I go 45 degrees or 8x12 if I go 60 degrees with a 9 inch kick. Curious what pros/cons you all will think of that I haven’t. Highlights of each for me are:

8x9 @45
-less wood, cheaper build.
-no need to reinforce support structure, I can connect the top to a large beam.
-similar angle to many of my outdoor projects.
-more room on far garage wall for later 20 degree wall and other training setups (campus ladder, etc)

8x12 @60
-standard kilter/tension board dimensions so more upgrade options down the road.
-can set longer problems/loops for endurance.
-enough area to split the center of the board with an 8 foot adjustable crack machine - still exploring design ideas.
-core baby!
-too steep? Not sure wife will be able to climb on this.
-will need to reinforce/replace the roof joists, they’re 2x4 boards and flex a lot. I can pretty easily replace them with three 2x6 boards that should be strong enough to support the wall. More wood and more work though.
Thanks all!

What grades do you climb? What are your goals?

Most climbers will get a lot more functionality out of a 45* wall (and especially so if you add an adjacent 20* wall), than out of a 60*. 60* is steep enough that almost everyone (except the super-strong) will be climbing pretty much just on jugs. 45* lets you use more fingery holds, and will transfer better to your outdoor climbing.

Your reasoning for 8x12@60 is that it meets kilter/tension board dimensions, but those boards also have the overwhelming majority of community problems set at 45 degrees or above/below (depending on your origin) so I'm not sure that's a meaningful benefit. For a 3 ft difference you're talking about probably 1-2 additional moves max - is that worth the reduced hold variety you'll get from having to use holds large enough to be reasonable for training at 60 degrees?

Personally I think 45 degrees is the absolute sweet spot for a minimalistic training board because you can still hang fairly small holds at that angle, and you don't need more than 3-5 moves off the ground to train strength/power effectively so the height loss wouldn't be a dealbreaker. On the other hand if you're Malcolm Smith strong and you can train on problems with small enough holds beyond 45 degrees then the extra length might be worthwhile. If you go with the steeper angle, for sure be aware that it would be a very specific training tool for hard steep problems and wouldn't have much versatility.

I had a 60 with the kicker and I recommend it. Three more feet of climbing, and really, more than that because you can scrunch way down into the bottom because of the kicker. The whole family and all your friends will get strong enough to climb it. Put very small input chips for feet (3/4" wood works well), so even if you are on the jugs, you can say "chips only for feet" and really work your body. It's a good all around body strengthening  angle, and IMHO the extra couple of feet makes all the difference.

Outside I can climb V6 pretty reliably, getting close on some V7-8s. I’ve gotten up a few short crimpy 5.12a on lead but I’d like to be able to do longer more sustained 12b-d reliably this year or next. Nothing I’m working on is aggressively overhung as 55-60 deg.

Another plus for the 45 would be that I could reinforce the roof supports later and add another panel on the roof to get the few extra moves in.

If it's not an angle you climb, it may not be so useful to you. Food for thought though: you could do two to four hand moves before your feet even leave the kicker... My own opinion on ceiling panels is that they're not all that useful. I had a friend with a set up like that and you got a few more moves but they didn't feel all that "real" in that your upper body moves into the horizontal but your feet don't - depending on how long the ceiling panel is - you just kind of stop when you're just starting to get really steep. For me, the woody needs to be fun to stay engaged with it. Everybody from my strong friends to non-climbers to kids getting power-spotted  found the "cave" angle of the woody entertaining. So the fun factor was high, and so was the psych. Consider making wood holds too, either angle, for skin friendly fun. Cheers!

I'd probably agree on the lack of utility for a roof panel unless you have a vertical wall on either side you could put jibs on to facilitate the roof moves and get some additional lateral core training.

 the woody needs to be fun to stay engaged with it

I think this statement sums it up honestly. If you think you're going to train consistently enough and be strong enough to stay engaged climbing at 60 degrees long term then the additional length would probably be worthwhile for training purposes. On the other hand, if you think you'll need more versatility in terms of hold size to avoid feeling burnt out then you might want to stick with 45.

The most important factor with training is consistency - the worst outcome possible would be to have a permanent setup where you start thinking 'I'm not feeling strong/motivated enough to climb at this angle today' if that's your only training option. An important factor here is probably whether or not you have other wall/rock available locally for regular training. If you have a gym membership or a local crag with lots of wall angle/hold options then you could probably get away with making your home wall really focused on hard training at a steeper angle.

Thanks for the input everyone. Still feeling torn but these are good things to think about. I am in a place where I have a lot of gyms/varied climbing nearby, the main use of this ultimately will be evening sessions when membership is frozen in the summer months and when I can’t get out after work. So it doesn’t necessarily need to be a training piece for all types of climbing.

Also curious, is there any reason not to build a wall from 1” plywood other than the cost? I know someone with enough free 4x4 panels to make the 45, so that’s another point in favor of that design. I’d imagine the 1” ply would make the 60 deg too heavy?

60 degrees with a 9 inch kicker is going or be dabby.

I originally built my wall to be 45 degrees overhanging. Then I moved to a place with shorter ceilings and now it sits at 55 and is a bit dabby for my taste with a 16 inch kicker. I'm pretty tall though. Honestly though, if I were to move to a new place with higher ceilings, I'd probably leave it at 55. I really like how much more body tension it requires you to develop than the 45, especially if you only step footchips.

Another thing to consider is how dense you plan on making your board. Holds cost a lot of money to buy and take a lot of time to make by hand. A smaller board may be more fun because of greater hold density and more route options if you're not planning on getting tons of holds.

I have always built my home walls at 55-60 degrees (several walls spread out over 22 years). I find that to be the ideal angle to supplement normal gym climbing with, because it requires techniques and tension not required by less steep angles (and setting styles) commonly found in gyms. If you are thoughtful with hold selection you can set fun and engaging problems from about V3 up. I find V7-V9 to be the real sweet spot on this angle as well. The strength and skills gained at this angle, in this grade range and up, seem to transfer very well to outdoor boulders.

People above are right about the psyche factor. I'd say that is a major thing to consider. My primary enjoyment in bouldering has always been trying extremely hard, to the point of suffering, so I enjoy trying to link heinous holds and failing at it a lot. My friends who visit more than once have been few and far between, but those who stick with it see it pay off in dividends. The most recent one climbed V8 outside within 9 months of starting climbing. So, it really does depend on what motivates you.

JCM wrote:(and especially so if you add an adjacent 20* wall)

Why?

I you can squeeze in an extra foot height wise at the 45*, the cropped Tension or Kilter board might give you the best of both worlds.