Go slower and bring more gear

oldfattradguuy kk wrote:

Read staying alive in avalanche terrain by Bruce Tremper on hand hardness and report back, it’s not a hard push, just until you feel pressure on you wrist, it’s actually a soft push. 

I've read Staying Alive cover to cover three times. It's a well-crafted text that clearly elucidates sometimes complex snow science topics using apt and easy to digest analogies, while maintaining a pragmatic focus to hopefully inform field practice and travel where it counts. It's a very accessible read relative to something like the Avalanche Handbook and is highly recommended for recreationalists traveling in avalanche terrain.

More to the point, you're correct: it's not a hard push. As it happens, most folks can't push on the tip of their nose very hard before they start to feel pain. Apologies if I was unclear; I assumed the unfamiliar reader would simply push on their nose to discover this themselves. I suppose the exception might be those alpinists who've spent enough time out in the cold that their noses are far less sensitive than normal.

Don't bring more crap.  Bring the required crap and Learn  to do more with it.  

Plus beer ain't light.  

Rich,

My two cents-

Efficiency can be critical, but the "speed=safety"  and "light is right" mantras have been overplayed for years, with practices by elite climbers on intense cutting-edge projects transported willy-nilly to ordinary endeavors, where the added risks far outweigh the purported benefits.  The journalistic climbing world is only just starting to take notice: gripped.com/routes/its-time… .  

Poor example in my estimation.  This is not the alpine mantra light is right or even speed is safety.  This  more fittingly falls into plain old speed climbing ala time record for  the Nose or Edge.
    Climbing for time is somewhat the anthesis of what most might consider  climbing but climbing has always been competitive.   Speed for speeds sake is merely climbers using a different yardstick and it’s been going on for as long as I’ve been climbing, which at this point is quite a while.
  Obviously full tilt climbing has much higher risks, percieved rewards or lack of same are a personal matter.
  I’d argue the media and climbing equipment companies that encourage their name brand hero’s to engage in these activities merely validate that this type of climbing is to be embraced.  No surprise the average joe or Jane thinks it’s worth trying to emulate.
   Climbing in a lot of ways is self regulating in the manner that once you’ve gotten yourself in way over your head and slapped around some; most, but not all  are very slow to repeat the experience.
  And yes folks die doing it, climbing is dangerous and the further the boundaries are pushed the more dangerous it gets, but so what?  Accidents are tragic whether on the highway or cliff side, no one goes out believing that their great idea might kill them or they’d never go-
  I’d wager it’s still mostly younger still immortal souls that are willing to push that hard.... the passing of time, assuming you survive,  slows a person down and hopefully interjects a little wisdom, regardless it’s still personal choice and it’s not like there’s a shortage of people.

The ever-increasing availability of rescue services seems to have encouraged this trend, with people going too light to survive conditions that are gnarly but far from unusual and then calling in the cavalry when the perfect conditions they counted on don't materialize. And it isn't just gumbies who fall into this trap.  outsideonline.com/1798971/k…

  Actually I’d argue that while a one in a million athlete Kilian is ( or was some 7 years ago) just learning to take his extraordinary mountain running ability and apply them to mountain routes.  I’d suggest he chose the Frendo for the same reason lots of climbers do, it’s big (1,100m or so) it’s close to the mid station & hut and you walk to the cable car or cosmiques hut to get down not very difficult.  
He guessed wrong and got his shit handed to him....
 Climbers of all abilities have also been getting their shit handed to them as long as I’ve been climbing.   Nothing new there.

 . Sure, you can overdo the gear and thereby make things harder,  and you can doom your endeavor with endless minor "safety" practices, but it seems to me that the trends are running the other way.  It is one thing to know how to go light and be fast, but it is another to grasp when such tactics are genuinely called-for,

And how do you learn how to go light or what is too light ??  How to stay warm when the weather turns and what do you really need to be carrying when your plans go sideways...? Only way you can learn how to do this stuff is by doing it, in spite of internet and YouTube everything none of that means shit until you go out and do it over and over, practice it and get occasionally slapped around some and then figure it out.  
   Obviously the trick is to get slapped around not slapped down...but that just takes time and experience and no small amount of luck at the beginning.
   That’s how everyone I know learned, always been that way.

and when you are just layering on risk for virtually no benefit.

   Im not sure it’s up to anyone other then the participants to decide on whether there are benefits or not......if climbing big mountains alpine style is the goal the immediate benefits are skill and knowledge that you can refine and hone to apply elsewhere.  It’s a learned skill alpine climbing is and the only way to learn is trial and error.
   

And there is the idea of smelling the roses. You can be in so much of a rush that you don't have a chance to appreciate where you are until after you're no longer there, at which point memory becomes primary, with in-the-moment contemplation and appreciation treated as unaffordable luxuries.

   That maybe the case from your elder statesmen posting on the internet role but who are you to dictate what a strapping fit extremely motivated young person should or should not do or try and what their goals and flowers should look or smell like...??  Telling a highly motivated, impassioned young person to slow down or something is a bad idea isn’t going to change much, never has, never will.

  My observation is those that really like to go fast and hard relish their successes when things go well as much as those that take a slower approach or find that faster and lighter are an unachievable method of getting up something.
   What they share in common however is when things go really bad and someone doesn’t make it home or doesn’t make it  home intact then I think that’s when there’s lotsa soul searching about the how’s and whys, the should or should not’s.

 Couple of “celebration of life” events, hospital visits or buddies in wheelchairs has a profound impact but still at best doesn’t dissuade the most impassioned or true believers, at least not permanently in my experience.

  Outta time, no editing sorry...am stuck in the airport In Frankfurt with my ponderously heavy bags of lightweight climbing gear in route for Chamonix, the only good part with the C virus it’s rather empty and no one wants to sit near anyone else!

Regards MD

Competitiveness is natural, both inter personal and intra personal.  It is as old as dirt.

Said by another, perhaps in different words:  It began with being the first to a summit.  After that, then first to get to the summit by a particular route.  More and more, what is left to the competitive is who is fastest on a route.   I'm ok with that progression.  It means a lot to some percentage of humans across time.

Still, many others of us appreciate the reminder that there can still be much else to be lived.  Thank you, Rich.  

Derek DeBruin wrote:

Mark Twight has been quite the big name in alpine climbing, and has a few books to his credit. He also founded Gym Jones. My understanding is that while there is some truth to his pontificating in the article, it's also something of an affectation used in his writing to elicit precisely your response. That said, his work is nearly always thought provoking whether you agree or not, so I'd encourage you to take a look at some of his other articles, too.

I believe that piece was written by Ed Hartouni, not Twight.

Oh for fks sake ! Look what the catz dragged in!
'Mo' H, yesterday And Michael D today!

Mr Dimitri, sir, The blond woman with the 2 big black dogs from the middle of the woods says hello!
And thank you for your thoughtful & thought-provoking post(This forum has become a near waste-land
 so this was like an oasis of inspiration in a desert of nonsense

MDimitri . wrote:
Rich,

My two cents-

Efficiency can be critical, but the "speed=safety"  and "light is right" mantras have been overplayed for years, with practices by elite climbers on intense cutting-edge projects transported willy-nilly to ordinary endeavors, where the added risks far outweigh the purported benefits.  The journalistic climbing world is only just starting to take notice: gripped.com/routes/its-time… .  

Poor example in my estimation.  This is not the alpine mantra light is right or even speed is safety.

 This  more fittingly falls into plain old speed climbing ala time record for  the Nose or Edge.
 Climbing for time is somewhat the anthesis of what most might consider (recreational*)climbing . . . but climbing has always been competitive.
 Speed for speed's sake is merely climbers using a different yardstick
and it’s been going on for as long as I’ve been climbing, which at this point is quite a while.
 Obviously full tilt climbing has much higher risks, perceived rewards or lack thereof,  are a personal matter.  

  I’d argue the media and climbing equipment companies that encourage their name brand hero’s to engage in these activities merely validate that this type of climbing is to be embraced.  No surprise the average joe or Jane thinks it’s worth trying to emulate.
   Climbing in a lot of ways is self-regulating in the manner that once you’ve gotten yourself in way over your head and slapped around some; most, but not all  are very slow to repeat the experience.
  And yes folks die doing it, climbing is dangerous and the further the boundaries are pushed the more dangerous it gets, but so what?  Accidents are tragic whether on the highway or cliffside, no one goes out believing that their great idea might kill them or they’d never go-
  I’d wager it’s still mostly younger still immortal souls that are willing to push that hard.... the passing of time, assuming you survive,  slows a person down and hopefully interjects a little wisdom, regardless it’s still  personal choice - and it’s not like there’s a shortage of people.

The ever-increasing availability of rescue services seems to have encouraged this trend, with people going too light to survive conditions that are gnarly but far from unusual and then calling in the cavalry when the perfect conditions they counted on don't materialize. And it isn't just gumbies who fall into this trap.  outsideonline.com/1798971/k…

  Actually I’d argue, that while a one in a million athlete Kilian is (was some 7 years ago)
(what was special was his way of going, mixing/expanding both disciplines was/sic.)
 just learning to take his extraordinary mountain running ability and apply them to mountain routes.  
I’d suggest he chose the Frendo for the same reason lots of climbers do, it’s big (1,100m or so)
 it’s close to the mid-station & hut and you walk to the cable car or cosmiques hut to get down not very difficult.  
He guessed wrong and got his shit handed to him....
Climbers of all abilities have also been getting their shit handed to them as long as I’ve been climbing.  
Nothing new there.

 Sure, you can overdo the gear and thereby make things harder,  and you can doom your endeavor with endless minor "safety" practices,
 but it seems to me that the trends are running the other way.

 It is one thing to know how to go light and be fast, but it is another to grasp when such tactics are genuinely called-for,

And how do you learn how to go light or what is too light ??  
How to stay warm when the weather turns and what do you really need to be carrying when your plans go sideways...?

Only way you can learn how to do this stuff is by doing it,

in spite of internet and YouTube everything none of that means shit

 until you go out and do it over and over, practice it and get occasionally slapped around
 some and then figure it out.  
   Obviously the trick is to get slapped around not slapped down...

but that just takes time and experience and no small amount of luck at the beginning.
   That’s how everyone I know learned,
always been that way.

. . . . and when you are just layering on risk for virtually no benefit.

   Im not sure it’s up to anyone other then the participants to decide on whether there are benefits or not......
if climbing big mountains alpine style is the goal the immediate benefits are skill and knowledge that you can refine and hone to apply elsewhere.
 It’s a learned skill alpine climbing is and the only way to learn is trial and error.
   

And there is the idea of smelling the roses. You can be in so much of a rush that you don't have a chance to appreciate where you are until after you're no longer there, at which point memory becomes primary, with in-the-moment contemplation and appreciation treated as unaffordable luxuries.
f

   That may be the case from your elder statesmen posting on the internet role but who are you to dictate what a strapping fit extremely motivated young person should or should not do or try and what their goals and flowers should look or smell like...??  
Telling a highly motivated, impassioned young person to slow down or something is a bad idea isn’t going to change much,
 never has, never will.

  My observation is those that really like to go fast and hard relish their successes when things go well
(just) as much as those that take a slower approach or (those who) find that 'faster and lighter' are an unachievable method of getting up something.
   What they share in common however is when things go really bad and someone doesn’t make it home
 or doesn’t make it  home intact
then I think that’s when there’s lotsa soul searching about the how’s and whys, the should or should not’s.

 Couple of “celebration of life” events, hospital visits or buddies in wheelchairs and the like, has a profound impact - . But still, at best, doesn’t dissuade the most impassioned (or 'true believers') at least not permanently, in my experience.

  Outta time, no editing sorry..
.am stuck in the airport In Frankfurt with my ponderously heavy bags of lightweight climbing gear in route for Chamonix,
the only good part with the C virus it’s rather empty and no one wants to sit near anyone else!

Regards MD

Buck Rogers wrote:

I believe that piece was written by Ed Hartouni, not Twight.

It's on Ed's website, but they're Mark's words. It's from the book "Kiss or Kill." The third ascent team for Denali's Slovak Direct was Twight, Backes, and House.

Derek DeBruin wrote:

It's on Ed's website, but they're Mark's words. It's from the book "Kiss or Kill." The third ascent team for Denali's Slovak Direct was Twight, Backes, and House.

Could be.  It just seemed that the author was talking about "Mark" and how the author and him did not get along.

"I spent my first trip of 2000 to Denali trying to put as much distance between myself and my partner as possible. Mark and I never climbed together before."

"Mark isn't part of my crew, those few alpine climbers who are at the top of the game. Although he climbs because he loves it, and I do the same, there's an ocean separating how and why we each love climbing. Mark's technical ability and survival skills are unimpeachable. He's lived through some mind-blowing adventures, but I didn't trust his judgement, or care enough about him to make any concession."

Maybe it was written by Mark Twight and he is referencing a different Mark?

Buck Rogers wrote: Maybe it was written by Mark Twight and he is referencing a different Mark?

Yeah, that was confusing for me, too.

Twight is THE MAN

Buck Rogers wrote:

Maybe it was written by Mark Twight and he is referencing a different Mark?

He was referring to Mark Jenkins, his partner for that climb. 

Buck Rogers wrote:

Could be.  It just seemed that the author was talking about "Mark" and how the author and him did not get along.

"I spent my first trip of 2000 to Denali trying to put as much distance between myself and my partner as possible. Mark and I never climbed together before."

"Mark isn't part of my crew, those few alpine climbers who are at the top of the game. Although he climbs because he loves it, and I do the same, there's an ocean separating how and why we each love climbing. Mark's technical ability and survival skills are unimpeachable. He's lived through some mind-blowing adventures, but I didn't trust his judgement, or care enough about him to make any concession."

Maybe it was written by Mark Twight and he is referencing a different Mark?

Howdy Buck, no "could-be" about it, it's definitely written by Twight. It's a well-known article from that era, and ran not only in Climbing magazine but was reprinted in Twight's book, "Kiss or Kill." Also, his author byline is shown right up top, beneath the title :). The Mark he's referring to in the article is Mark Jenkins -- they didn't get along so well on their 2000 trip. Jenkins wrote a terrific article about that trip, was published in Outside, I'm pretty certain -- worth looking up, and provides a drastically different perspective than Twight's. In fact, if I remember right, it would be a wonderful addition to this thread, for balance. Suffice to say, the two Marks had very different personalities (not a surprise to those who know them both!). 

This is a great thread, thanks, Rich. Terrific list from Derek, too, and MDimitri's post as well. I think lots of things exist together here. While speed can be important, and knowing how to get by with less can be life-saving at times, it's undoubtedly true that climbers (I'm guilty as well) can overstate it, overdo it, overhype it as drive, egos, or mood influence us all. Nobody is without ego, including the old farts (me again these days) telling the youngins to slow down. But it is also wise to listen and improve; there's wisdom in Rich's words. Seems to me there is no formula, but rather a continual fine-tuning of techniques and knowledge, combined with the depth that only real-world experience can deliver, and, always, the need for vigilance. Never let down your guard, and, inshallah, going both fast and slow, smell the roses for a lifetime.

Mike, I agree with many of your objections.  Like everything else, climbing is complicated, decisions are made along a spectrum of commitment rather than in some binary way, and almost any definitive pronouncement is bound to be "wrong" for some people.  But there seem to me to be very few voices raised against the pervasive promotion and celebration of the speed and minimalist mantras, which as we both know are true and appropriate in some cases, but are also being pushed by journalistic and other commercial interests and the need for professional climbers to make themselves into commodities, and I was making a post, not writing a book, and so had to live with all the exceptions that (over) simplification entail.  I thought the things I said ought to play a larger part in the conversation than they seem to.  I'm glad you weighed in too, as I think this is a discussion that needs more airtime.

So I'm not going to respond point by point, folks can read your excellent comments and arrive at their own conclusions.  There is, however, one comment that saddened me a bit because it seemed as if you were veering into a personal attack.

That maybe the case from your elder statesmen posting on the internet role but who are you to dictate what a strapping fit extremely motivated young person should or should not do or try and what their goals and flowers should look or smell like...??  

Who am I? Elder statesman or befuddled old fool, I have the same "right" to express an opinion as you or anyone else!    

I certainly have no illusions that "strapping fit extremely motivated young persons" will somehow be constrained by anything I say on the internet, .and feel no need to suppress my opinions because of the effect (or as you say, lack of effect) those opinions might have on those who have almost certainly already made up their minds---until, as you note, the post-tragedy soul-searching begins.  So I'm saying let's have a more balanced set of perspectives out there---and let the chips fall where they may.

Some visual perspective on Twight's write up.

Impressive.

JCS

Impressive indeed, but being a great climber/mountaineerer doesn't give you extra rights to be an d%#k.
Actually most awesome climbers are very cool and chill human being

I think another dimension of this, beyond the more extreme case of fast and light alpinism, is that "go faster and carry less gear" can often comes up in the context of partnerships where one climber is significantly more skilled and/or risk-tolerant than another.

In the best case it can be a gentle encouragement to take a look at how you're moving and what you're carrying and reassess whether what you're doing is working for you. Both partners can ask themselves, "Do I need to be moving this slow/fast to do what I want to do with the margin of safety I want? Am I placing gear in a way that lines up with my goals and risk tolerances?"

In the worst case, I think it can come from a breakdown in communications and expectations, and exacerbate issues coming from that. Maybe the faster/lighter partner is frustrated because they had expected their partner to be more like them. Maybe the slower/heavier partner chose an objective inappropriate for how they climb, or didn't do a good job communicating and setting expectations with their partner. Maybe the faster/lighter partner found it enjoyable to progress in this regard and assumes their partner will feel the same way, or assumes that their partner' comfort on rock and with gear is greater than it actually is. Maybe the slower/heavier partner is embarrassed that they don't climb in the same way as their partner and is putting pressure on themselves to do so.

I can recall that during my first year leading I would kind of oscillate between really sewing stuff up (like, more-than-one-piece-per-move really) and occasionally running it out in ways that in retrospect I don't think I was truly comfortable with. With time, I feel I've come to a more balanced approach. I'm sure my comfort and awareness of that comfort will continue to shift over time.

Kelly Cordes wrote:

Howdy Buck, no "could-be" about it, it's definitely written by Twight. It's a well-known article from that era, and ran not only in Climbing magazine but was reprinted in Twight's book, "Kiss or Kill." Also, his author byline is shown right up top, beneath the title :). The Mark he's referring to in the article is Mark Jenkins 

Thanks for the clarification, and without personal scatting attack as well!

There is hope for MP discussions!

My experience with light gear in unexpectedly heavy conditions has always sucked. I really stive to find a ballance when im packing or deciding what to bring. I've nailed it before and I've messed up bigtime before. Leaving something like a jacket at the car to shave a lb is kinda dumb to me. Im not fast enough to begin with to have that much weight make the difference. I do however try to make smart decisions about what is really neccessary based on past experience, educated guesses, and just a little "what ifs". I think most people do. Just some people do it differently and are either smarter, more experienced,or more willing to gamble a little. 

MDimitri . wrote:
Actually I’d argue that while a one in a million athlete Kilian is ( or was some 7 years ago) just learning to take his extraordinary mountain running ability and apply them to mountain routes.  I’d suggest he chose the Frendo for the same reason lots of climbers do, it’s big (1,100m or so) it’s close to the mid station & hut and you walk to the cable car or cosmiques hut to get down not very difficult.  
He guessed wrong and got his shit handed to him....
 Climbers of all abilities have also been getting their shit handed to them as long as I’ve been climbing.   Nothing new there.

you should re-read what happened.

Speed may be one reason to go light on gear and equipment but the main reason I choose to be a minimalist is the weight.  At 155lbs soaking wet with work boots, carrying lots of gear on my back and hips is tiresome.  At the end of the day, I feel allot better if I just bring the bear minimum.  Never have felt that safety was compromised.  Bring what is needed, and nothing else.  

Also if you gonna bring allot of extra heavy shit with you into the mountains, thats ok, but don't put that stuff in your partners pack without asking them first.