Rock Art Disrespected at Josh!

Scrub it and get over it. It’s a fookin rock. 

JohnReg wrote:

You've framed the question incorrectly to make your argument seem logical. It isn't about art quality or even if either images are in fact 'art'. It's the conditions they were created under. Older images were created when art didn't exist in conditions when humans could not be assured of food/water/survival. This makes the older images more interesting to most humans (you excluded) than those more recent images and the recent ones so much more trivial. Also as a human community in response to the explosion in the human population in recent centuries we have agreed as a group to keep certain places as pristine as possible and free of human evidence. There are plenty of walls and bridges to spray paint.

Damn he got me. :) 

So these cave doodles should be preserved because they are more "interesting" than the new doodles. Seems kind of arbitrary, don't ya think? 

I beg to differ, I find the new doodles quite interesting and the old ones quite boring.

JohnReg makes a good point.  We are talking about Joshua Tree National Park, an area created to be free as possible from modern development and devoted to the protection of natural and cultural resources like prehistoric rock art.  Modern graffiti is out of bounds within the park.

Tradiban wrote:I beg to differ, I find the new doodles quite interesting and the old ones quite boring.

Duh, sloppy, attention-seeking doodling is like your spirit animal.

As a side note, everybody should bring a can of spray paint up all Tradiban routes to decorate them to his tastes. Some swastikas and upside down crosses at the belays should cheer him up.*

* I am joking, of course.  I in no way support vandalism, nazis,  or Tradiban.

Bill Lawry wrote: What I want to know is, does nomad ventures sell spray paint?

Hmmmm ...   no response from a “local”???   I know I could call them.  But I figure an art aficionado would know.  

Bill Lawry wrote:

Hmmmm ...   no response from a “local”???   I know I could call them.  But I figure an art aficionado would know. 

I have a bunch of acrylic paint, Bill if you want to bring the brushes. Maybe we'll get lucky and Tradiban will visit
JTree while you are there and we can do a nice MURAL on his car.

 

I hear some emotional reasons to protect cave doodles (it's art, it's "interesting") but we can't make policy based on emotions. This would result in chaos. There has to be a practical reason behind these decisions.

Besides, it would be easy to apply these emotional reasons to the new modern rock art.

Let's try another stab at the question. What would be lost if the ancient cave doodles were destroyed?

This a question for Robert Hernandez:  Could you name the specific areas that archies want to rope off indefinitely?  And areas from which people are excluded indefinitely?  I worked for forty years in the NPS as an archaeologist; my biggest project ever was an excavation with the express purpose of allowing increased access to an archaeological site.  We had visitors while the project was underway for four summers and we were happy to show them what we were up to.

The ultimate end of archaeological work is communication to the public and broad distribution of our results and findings.  Thismay require months and years of excavation, laboratory analysis and, specialized studies, but eventually significant findings emerge.

One thing very common in th nPS is establishing or increasing campgrounds. Guess what?  Places that are ideal for campiing now were ideal for camping then, so it is routine to find arhaeological material within the proposed location.  i remember checking one such spot, very surprised that there was not an arch site present.  We found it when we started digging postholes- the site was buried about three feet down.  We did some sampling and some limited studies and people now routinely camp, very enjoyably at that location today.  I hae spentseveral nights there myself.

Tradiban wrote: I hear some emotional reasons to protect cave doodles (it's art, it's "interesting") but we can't make policy based on emotions. This would result in chaos. There has to be a practical reason behind these decisions.

Besides, it would be easy to apply these emotional reasons to the new modern rock art.

Let's try another stab at the question. What would be lost if the ancient cave doodles were destroyed?

Briefly, the means and potential to learn about the past,not just with present day techniques, but also methods that may (will!) be developed in the future.

Here's a question for you - what is the benefit of destoying ancient artwork?

Tradiban
Let's try another stab at the question. What would be lost if the ancient cave doodles were destroyed?

Inspiration

Cosmiccragsman AKA Dwain wrote: I have a bunch of acrylic paint, Bill if you want to bring the brushes. Maybe we'll get lucky and Tradiban will visit
JTree while you are there and we can do a nice MURAL on his car.

I think he outlawed art on his car.  But he did give  tacit approval at Tahquitz.

Don P. Morris wrote:

Briefly, the means and potential to learn about the past,not just with present day techniques, but also methods that may (will!) be developed in the future.

What's to learn from cave doodles?

Here's a question for you - what is the benefit of destoying ancient artwork?

We get to climb the routes.

Gumby King wrote: Inspiration

You could say the same about the new rock art. So what separates the old cave doodles from the new ones?

Somehow I suspect you do not have a very high opinion of archaeologists, but possibly I am mistaken.

I had never heard of Jemez NM (presumably national Monument).  There is no such entity.  You are probably referring , I think, to Jemez State Historical Site??

I also asked you for specifics. "many spots across utah and Arizona" and the other general references above are hardly specific.

Please realize that in some locations and in the policies of some land owners and managers, rock climbing is not seen as a proper use, either permanantly or on a seasonal basis (breeding season at Devil's Tower).  This appliesoften to other uses as well, where plant and animal populations are at risk.

This cuts both ways.  One of my major projects was redesigned and altered at significant expense because of the presence of an endangered plant species and nesting birds.  We adapted, carried on, and came to a successful conclusion.  Thoughtful land management, either by private or government managers, requires thoughtful consideration of impacts and development of alternatives and trade offs, not all of which meet with approval by advocacy groups.

I began climbing in the piton era and it was then that climbers who realized that piton placement and removal had profound impacts on the climbing environment and spearheaded the development of chocks and camming devices.  I am aghast at pictures of chalk smeared cracks and tales of crowds waiting turns on popular routes.  Are we transferring the gym environment to the crags?? Not a good idea.

archaeology and climbing can blend comfortably.  year ago, I headed a major project in Canyon de Chelly National Monument, where it was a decent 5.4 to real parts of the site and we ranged up to 5.8/5.9 and even aid to travel some of the prehistoric trails and access a few sites.  Anytime I entered into the canyon I always had at least a 100' 9mm line with me, and often a lot more.  Now, with declining skills in old age, I still use my climbing background.

Understanding the past is more than preserving notable building'  It also involves careful meticulous analysis of "trash"", often with new and ground-breaking techniques that are not obvious.  But the insights gained are frequently considerable.

Bottom line is:  Climbers sometinmes in some places, must wait their turn.  other resources may have priority.   Last I looked, there is plenty of rock and lots of routes out there.

Don P. Morris wrote:
Understanding the past is more than preserving notable building'  It also involves careful meticulous analysis of "trash"", often with new and ground-breaking techniques that are not obvious.  But the insights gained are frequently considerable.

What insights do you speak of and how have they shaped our world?

Tradiban wrote: What insights do you speak of and how have they shaped our world?

Once again, arguing merely for the sake of arguing, because that's all you contribute to the site. 

Marc801 C wrote:

Once again, arguing merely for the sake of arguing, because that's all you contribute to the site. 

But sometimes arguing makes a person think.
However, I do think the graffiti at JTree IS vandalism.

Don P. Morris wrote: Somehow I suspect you do not have a very high opinion of archaeologists, but possibly I am mistaken.

I had never heard of Jemez NM (presumably national Monument).  There is no such entity.  You are probably referring , I think, to Jemez State Historical Site??

...........

Bottom line is:  Climbers sometinmes in some places, must wait their turn.  other resources may have priority.   Last I looked, there is plenty of rock and lots of routes out there.

Hey Don...thanks for your thoughtful attempts to educate the masses here. While it probably is helpful for a few, I suspect that trolls will invariably continue as they have; to drag the conversation down. Personally, I'd bail on these attempts as I'm too susceptible to getting wound up. Cheers, Pete

Tradiban wrote: What insights do you speak of and how have they shaped our world?

Fair question:  Forstarters:  Homo sapiens  evolved in Southern Africa and spread throughout the world a surprisingly long time ago, reaching North and South America somewhere around 15,000 years ago (time subject to change and refinement, depending on new discoveries and data).  Civilizations and more complex cultures developed independently at various location around the world (Mesopotamia, SE Asia, Mexico, Peru to name just a few)..

1493 was a bad year for Native Americans as the Old World came to visit, bring disease, and firearms with them (Read a very fine book - Guns, germs, and Steel for more on this viewpoint).

Locally, the Native Chumash state that they have been in SoCal forever. Currently, the oldest (13,200 years BP) human skeletal remains in either north or south America come from Santa Rosa island, well within their territory, so their statement appears to be holding up.  The archaeological record from that time forward shows long cultural development leading up to Spanish contact.

Chanages in climate matter.Drastic changes, inclduing territorial shrinkage, are shown to be the results of roughts, etc through human history (shrinkage of Southwestern peublo groups post 1300 AD due to a well documented and prolonged drought.

Just quickly off the top of my head. In general, archaeological findings support the equivalence of different human groups and our essential human equality.  This is big news in some quarters and denied by some.

Don P. Morris wrote:

Fair question:  Forstarters:  Homo sapiens  evolved in Southern Africa and spread throughout the world a surprisingly long time ago, reaching North and South America somewhere around 15,000 years ago (time subject to change and refinement, depending on new discoveries and data).  Civilizations and more complex cultures developed independently at various location around the world (Mesopotamia, SE Asia, Mexico, Peru to name just a few)..

1493 was a bad year for Native Americans as the Old World came to visit, bring disease, and firearms with them (Read a very fine book - Guns, germs, and Steel for more on this viewpoint).

Locally, the Native Chumash state that they have been in SoCal forever. Currently, the oldest (13,200 years BP) human skeletal remains in either north or south America come from Santa Rosa island, well within their territory, so their statement appears to be holding up.  The archaeological record from that time forward shows long cultural development leading up to Spanish contact.

Chanages in climate matter.Drastic changes, inclduing territorial shrinkage, are shown to be the results of roughts, etc through human history (shrinkage of Southwestern peublo groups post 1300 AD due to a well documented and prolonged drought.

Just quickly off the top of my head. In general, archaeological findings support the equivalence of different human groups and our essential human equality.  This is big news in some quarters and denied by some.

Yea, ok, so what? What about the cave doodles? Sure, they tie into the whole historical narrative but at this point is it necessary to block them off and avoid by 50ft? We've gotten what you people seem to be looking for from them, time to let them go?

And again, how about these new doodles, would they not fall into the same classification as the old ones in the future? 

Tradiban wrote:

Yea, ok, so what? What about the cave doodles? Sure, they tie into the whole historical narrative but at this point is it necessary to block them off and avoid by 50ft? We've gotten what you people seem to be looking for from them, time to let them go?

And again, how about these new doodles, would they not fall into the same classification as the old ones in the future?

No. we gotz the internetz to doodle on now

Besides, if we were given free reign to graffiti now, with the billions
of people on this planet, every rock, building, vehicle and surface on this world would be covered.

Why shouldn't we be able to graffiti on your car and house, Tradiban, if you think  modern graffiti art is ok and should be allowed?
Because you think your property should be exempt and against the law?