TR on two quickdraws at anchors, opposite and opposed question

At times I will top rope and clean a route a friend has just put up on lead.

I have noticed some variation in the way in which the leader will clip the rope into the last two quickdraws at the anchors. The two variations I have seen are A and C in the image below. (See difference circled in red on the left draws)

When on top rope, I’ve noticed the downward force from the rope tends to pull the draws toward each other and change their orientation slightly.

So in scenario A the draws remain opposed. 

But in scenario B the draws both end up with their gates facing forward. My thought is this no longer meets anchor safety principles since they are no longer opposed, but I wasn’t sure if I was overthinking it....

Mark Gray wrote: At times I will top rope and clean a route a friend has just put up on lead.

I have noticed some variation in the way in which the leader will clip the rope into the last two quickdraws at the anchors. The two variations I have seen are A and C in the image below. (See difference circled in red on the left draws)

When on top rope, I’ve noticed the downward force from the rope tends to pull the draws toward each other and change their orientation slightly.

So in scenario A the draws remain opposed.

But in scenario B the draws both end up with their gates facing forward. My thought is this no longer meets anchor safety principles since they are no longer opposed, but I wasn’t sure if I was overthinking it....

You're overthinking it.

As you've noted by the red dash circle, the difference is that in figure C the rope is clipped such that when weighted there is a twist in the dog bone.  At that point, the gates of the rope biner are not opposite and opposed, and therefore not AS SAFE as figure B.  

I think "opposite and opposed" is less necessary as a safety protocol when the rope will always be below whatever it's clipped into i.e. top roping, lowering, rappelling, etc. 

You should always aim for the safest setup possible, especially when it's something as simple as hanging two draws for a top rope.  

Making compromises in safety is not how you should start off your climbing career.  Trade-offs are made once you fully understand the implications of your deviation from the safest way in return for speed, efficiencies, emergencies, or whatever the case may be.  Laziness is not an excuse for compromising safety.

You're both correct that C is not "opposite and opposed" and, also, you're overthinking it. Two draws pointed any direction on a TR are extremely unlikely to ever unclip.

If you really want to be 99.9% sure put a locker on the bottom of one of those TR draws. 

Marc801 C wrote: You're overthinking it.

I disagree...you're right in assessing that the climber has not clipped the rope in the best orientation to keep the carabiners opposite when the system is weighted in scenario C.  

Probably a low possibility of failure when lowering or even if top roping through it, but it would not be best practice.

If someone you're climbing with is frequently clipping the anchors in the fashion shown in scenario C, perhaps using an approach shown in this AAC video would be in order: youtube.com/watch?v=4BBCDTz…

The problem with the opposite and opposed, at least some of the time, is that now the gate of one of the biners can be levered open by the rock.

Personally, if I though it was going to be a problem, I'd throw a locker on it.  But I have never actually done that.  I use C almost all of the time, doesn't bother me.

I agree way over thinking, a ton of sport climbs in the USA have mossy hooks and they have gates facing the same direction and on lowering and TRing on them is safe, just saying!

Tal Wanish wrote:

Side note on this, that's the first time I've ever seen someone use a belay device in guide mode on the ground (@5:13). Super neat.

I love how nonchalantly Ron (the belayer in the video) is like  "Ohh...this is awesome..."

Joshua McDaniel wrote:

I disagree...you're right in assessing that the climber has not clipped the rope in the best orientation to keep the carabiners opposite when the system is weighted in scenario C.  

Probably a low possibility of failure when lowering or even if top roping through it, but it would not be best practice.

If someone you're climbing with is frequently clipping the anchors in the fashion shown in scenario C, perhaps using an approach shown in this AAC video would be in order: youtube.com/watch?v=4BBCDTz…

You’re overthinking it, too. 

Andrew Reed wrote: As you've noted by the red dash circle, the difference is that in figure C the rope is clipped such that when weighted there is a twist in the dog bone.  At that point, the gates of the rope biner are not opposite and opposed, and therefore not AS SAFE as figure B.  

You should always aim for the safest setup possible, especially when it's something as simple as hanging two draws for a top rope.  

Making compromises in safety is not how you should start off your climbing career.  Trade-offs are made once you fully understand the implications of your deviation from the safest way in return for speed, efficiencies, emergencies, or whatever the case may be.  Laziness is not an excuse for compromising safety.

It’s either safe or it isn’t. There isn’t the concept of “more safe” in climbing. 

Tal Wanish wrote:

Side note on this, that's the first time I've ever seen someone use a belay device in guide mode on the ground (@5:13). Super neat.

Yeah, except I'm wondering how, if you have a climber hanging in space, you're supposed to unhook that lower biner to put it in "regular" ATC mode? 

Mike Arechiga wrote: I agree way over thinking, a ton of sport climbs in the USA have mossy hooks and they have gates facing the same direction and on lowering and TRing on them is safe, just saying!

One of the reasons I find Mussies non optimal, though they have good aspects. It may be unlikely at the top of a steep route, but it is too easy to form a loop and unclip, especially if not very experienced.

Marc801 C wrote: It’s either safe or it isn’t. There isn’t the concept of “more safe” in climbing. 

"Safe" is not a zero-sum concept. (linguistically the existence of "safe" with the suffix "er" supports this as well) 

In two climbing scenarios where one setup has a 1% chance of catastrophic failure and another has an 30% of catastrophic failure, the use of both systems will be "safe" when there's no catastrophe. But the reasoning behind not choosing between one anchor setting that requires one thing to go wrong versus three things to go wrong at once because they are both "safe" in normal usage is not going to convince your partner as they plummet toward the earth. Luckily, your partner will likely only be displeased with you for a short period of time defined by the acceleration of gravity and the height of your partner when the random outlier catastrophe occurs.

I agree that the OP is overthinking it, but it does no favors to anyone to combat overthinking by oversimplifying. 

A is opposite and opposed c is not.  As said up thread.

A is safer.

C might be good enough but anyone setting up a top tips for OTHERS should take into account other people might prefer the safer option.  I might take risks for myself but believe I should force other people to take risks that they dont even know they are taking.  The people on the ground can't see your setup they just have to trust you so do good job.   And if they dont know the difference maybe they are not ready to set up topropes...

Missiles are not for tring and lowering always weights the rope so its different.  I've lowered off open shuts with no gate (but prefer the ones with gates.)  

this is a classic "it depends"

Use your brain and decide what system will work for the orientation of the anchor. 

Or build one quick draw with two lockers on it and avoid the confusion. :)

In my opinion A and B are correct, that's what I would want and do when being lowered. Funny thing is I had a little argument about this just last weekend with my climbing partner.  2 out of 3 said opposite, he said spines of the biners towards the rock. I want spines of screw gates on a top rope jig towards the rock, but for being lowered off a sports route I want opposing.

They are used at Jailhouse all the time, last time i was at Jailhouse the crag there looked pretty steep to me and all the years I climbed there never saw them fell! Things do wear out and do need replacing, but they have proven in the past to be safe, and using a couple draws at the anchor with gates facing opposing it standard but again In my opinion way over thinking this! Happy climbing Mike A. 

Senor Arroz wrote: If you really want to be 99.9% sure put a locker on the bottom of one of those TR draws. 

Hey SA, that 0.1% fail rate for top anchors is too high for my taste.

After several anchors per weekend that adds up to a bunch fails in a lifetime, and that's only in the TR anchors, sort of. 

I usually don’t worry about stuff like this but after seeing a guy’s rope completely unclip from mussies as he was traverseing  slightly above one anchor to reach another I prefer to clip my draws opposite a opposed.
Yes what he was doing was obviously unsafe and unusual but I can imagine quite a few beginner climbers getting into the same situation without realizing the danger. He thankfully realized it only after clipping the other anchor and seeing's that he soled the last 15’ feet.
So yeah opposite is better and why not it’s just as fast. Also if your draws aren’t touching Like in C each other at the master point it’s gonna twist the shit out of your rope and you should put a quad on it or extend.