Tetons, closing to humans

Tetons, closing to humans.

The Bighorn Sheep Working Group has proposed to close approximately half of Grand Teton National Park’s wilderness for half the year.

Grand Teton National Park is considering this proposal and is accepting comments on it.

Comment period is open till 20 June 2022

This proposal would not be helpful or legal. The proposal would have no biological benefit to Bighorn Sheep or any other mammals or species and would result in a Federal lawsuit.

Gee Dubble wrote: Bighorn Sheep like watching you climb.

Is your last name short for Dolittle?

"Gank" is to steal something.

I'm guessing they mean "jank" (which fits with his/her demonstrated inability to spell).

Meanwhile the Bundy's can take over any national property they want and graze their cattle on public land without any payment or consequences. Maybe we should get Ammon to show up and scare the feds away.

Gee Dubble wrote: Dear Gopaul Noojibail,
.....
Gregory G Collins

you should have opened with this!  this is measured, thoughtful writing about something you care about.  your original post looked like something a strange uncle would post on facebook.

Because it has not been mentioned here yet  GTNP has committed to a full genocide on Teton mountain goats via shooting them from a helicopter and letting them rot on the mountainside in the name of sheep... raises a lot of ethical questions.  This is well documented in the local news.
https://oilcity.news/wyoming/2020/02/21/game-and-fish-director-again-calls-for-a-stop-to-aerial-mountain-goat-culling/

The Morse-Bradys wrote: Because it has not been mentioned here yet  GTNP has committed to a full genocide on Teton mountain goats via shooting them from a helicopter and letting them rot on the mountainside in the name of sheep... raises a lot of ethical questions.  This is well documented in the local news.
https://oilcity.news/wyoming/2020/02/21/game-and-fish-director-again-calls-for-a-stop-to-aerial-mountain-goat-culling/

What!  They're culling a non-native species to protect a much more threatened native local species?  How dare they do their jobs!

The Morse-Bradys wrote: Because it has not been mentioned here yet  GTNP has committed to a full genocide on Teton mountain goats via shooting them from a helicopter and letting them rot on the mountainside in the name of sheep... raises a lot of ethical questions.  This is well documented in the local news.
https://oilcity.news/wyoming/2020/02/21/game-and-fish-director-again-calls-for-a-stop-to-aerial-mountain-goat-culling/

I am a bit confused. The article you linked links to this: wgfd.wyo.gov/News/Game-and-…;

Seems like the Wyo game and fish are objecting to aerial gunning as it would be more beneficial for hunters to be used instead. That makes sense, but if it's an urgent invasive species threat I could see why the NPS would want to use aerial gunning to reduce the invasive species. This is assuming that hunting has declined as a whole in the US so I can see why the NPS would have a problem with the use of hunters only as a viable solution. It does seem like they could have worked with game and fish to release more mountain goat tags, though.

But if there's something I am missing please let me know. 

Gee Dubble wrote: Lazy grad students, u Cali kids know how to get more sheep, import genetics. Closing to humans won’t do a gd thing! Is Lurker, Forest Dramis ? Regardless, “Lurker” is a gank name, especially for “admin”

Greg - I reviewed (skimmed) the grad student's thesis you are mentioning. It's here for anyone interested. 

While I agree that it is difficult to know if closing to humans will necessarily increase the teton bighorn sheep population, your assertion that:

Courtemanch omitted fundamental field observations in favor of lazy, limited, new, questionable GPS tracking. I encourage a review of the methods and conclusion of this study.

is incorrect. GPS tracking has been a staple of wildlife management for years (~2002 with Manly et. al being published, but likely GPS use predates this text). There are numerous methods to account for some of the errors in the use of GPS tracking of which the author uses. The thesis and paper referenced on the tetonsheep.org site are all sound science; there is no veil over their methods, or some red herring. They are using tried and true valid methods for estimating resource use by any ungulate. The methods are not trivial as it requires familiarity with GIS and statistical modeling, as well as wildlife biology.

I can explain their methods in layperson's terms if you wish, but it is inaccurate to state that their methods and conclusion are incorrect. You seem to also be conflating "population" estimates/size with the use of gps collars. Wildlife biologists don't use gps collars to estimate population sizes, they use them to understand what resources an animal uses. The author mentions additional surveys are needed to estimate population size. I believe these have been done before with aerial surveys, see below. 

Here are some news articles for you:
https://wgfd.wyo.gov/Regional-Offices/Jackson-Region/Jackson-Region-News/Teton-Bighorn-Sheep-and-Goats-Surveyed

https://wyo4news.com/news/teton-sheep-and-goats-tested-collared/

I am a wildlife statistician, hence why I find this interesting and wanted to clarify some things for people who may be reading this thread. 

brian burke wrote:

you should have opened with this!  this is measured, thoughtful writing about something you care about.  your original post looked like something a strange uncle would post on facebook.

Agreed -- all except the word "lazy" to describe the GPS tracking methodology in the new study.  That's the only place where your measured, thoughtful veneer showed cracks.  If you really want a citizen comment letter to have impact on a public land management process, either make sure it is one of several thousand saying the same thing or keep absolute control over your seething resentment.  Otherwise, you risk being dismissed as that strange uncle...

Saying that the carcasses are left to rot is not really accurate. In winter, sheep and goats that die usually freeze until spring, and then bears and other predators eat them. I do understand the ethical concerns about aerial shooting, but some reasonable arguments for it in this case exist. I also doubt ethics are the primary motivation behind the objections.

In any event, the aerial hunt is now suspended following some pretty inflammatory letters and statements from Wyoming officials that give further reason to doubt they are acting in good faith.

I heard that Mount Moran is currently closed for goat killing, which got postponed. Does that mean they're considering closing Moran as well? 

Gotta go with GC on this one. Open GTNP in the winter. I wanna ski Static one day...

Collins: "GTNP; armed with flimsy GPS "science", is going to close a lot of alpine peaks." 

Is there ANY EVIDENCE that GTNP is "going to close a lot of alpine peaks"?

GTNP is just as likely to impose limits on backcountry access to summer climbers due to perceived overcrowding in Garnet Canyon (another GPS study two years ago). Ask GTNP for that study's results.

There is a self-centeredness at play when we are more worried about losing a playground than protecting a habitat, especially a habitat in a national park.

As for the scientific integrity of this study, or its conclusions, or yours, or the value of anyone's opinion, that is always open to debate.

Gee Dubble wrote: I am the habitat. Who are you Teton Climber ?

So Greg, what is the evidence that your playground is going to be closed? Do you have internal sources telling you that this is the direction the park wishes to move? 

"I am the habitat". 

You don't need protecting. Your lifestyle is not the responsibility of the National Park Service (or taxpayers) to protect. Bighorns? I'm pretty sure none is hiring them to work in hospitality. You can always wait tables and provide for yourself. They can't. 

Again, the integrity of the study & its consequences is open to debate. Happy to hear from both sides. However, if you don't have facts to back up your claims, only worries, say so. None will blame you for wanting to enjoy the Tetons, even as a selfish pursuit. That's what we all do.

So, any evidence to your claims?

Saying "BSWG will propose locations of human closures on Thursday"  means nothing. They don't run GTNP.

Agreed, anytime

Mapping animals and people doesn't tell you about the long-term health of the Teton's bighorns but it is telling to look at the pictures in the various studies.

Is the NPS going to shutdown the Arc'teryx Academy circus to protect the sheep?

Gee Dubble wrote: Teton ClimberMP and all Teton Climbers. The current Bighorn Sheep process will recommend closing Nez Perce, Cloudveil Dome, Spalding, Wister, and South Teton.

Grand Teton National Park will enact a 4 month annual closure. You will be prohibited from climbing. You will not get these peaks opened retroactively. 
Closures will not help Sheep.

Greg:

You have been asked several times to provide evidence that the park is going to follow through on closures. You have dodged the question. Why?

If it is true, share the source so that it can be verified.

Gee Dubble wrote: The Avalanche Canyon human closure was announced by Jenny Lake Ranger’s at an open house in Jackson WY in October of 2017 and confirmed by park spokesperson by telephone the next day. The closure has since been walked back to the process that is ongoing now.

Thanks Greg. 

So, no final decision, and no closures announced publicly. And no public comments are currently being sought by GTNP on the plans you say the park has finalized, but not publicly shared, after an open house three years ago.

After what happened with the goat culling to protect bighorns, I would expect that the park would be more careful about major changes to backcountry access, or anything to do with the bighorns. Just the other day,  Mark Gordon (the Governor of Wyoming) & Interior Secretary David Bernhardt publicly whipped the ass of the acting Grand Teton Superintendent Gopaul Noojidail for acting unilaterally to kill goats without allowing good ol' Wyoming hunters the opportunity to harvest the animals. Just imagine what would happen if Gordon turns out to be a backcountry skier.

In one of the finest letters ever written to an arrogant public official from another often arrogant public official:

Gordon wrote Noojidail: 





For many years, skiers and climbers were telling friends not to help the park complete their surveys, or report sightings of wildlife, so as to protect backcountry playgrounds from closures. Now they complain that the park's surveys, collected data, and conclusions are misleading if not completely incorrect (wouldn't be the first time).

Perhaps bighorns are pretty adaptable and global warming may open up new habitat, or no new habitat is needed. One thing is clear, many backcountry users do not see protecting the Teton bighorns as a necessity,  or perhaps a priority. One would hope that there is a reasonable middle ground for protecting backcountry access and the bighorns — both objectives are part of the NPS mission:

"more than 20,000 National Park Service employees ...protect, preserve, and share America's 419 national parks with the American people and ...manage the NPS programs that help ..create close-to-home recreational opportunities. "  NPS

Plenty of people post about this topic on MP. How many will bother writing public officials like Gov. Gordon if unreasonable closures turn out to be true? Gordon acted on behalf of hunters because residents complained.

Teton Climber,

GTNP, or at least the Bighorn sheep working group, is absolutely seeking public comment on closures. They will be breaking out the map and feeling it out (in their own words "specific locations") on Thurs, 3/5/20 in the Snow King Grand room at 6pm. I would ask all Teton climbers and skiers that have an opinion on new sheep closures to please show up and speak your voice. I, for one, am not in favor of new closures without more science. I am having a hard time believing some of the conclusions of the study and, like Greg, agree that it will be harder to roll back closures than it is to prevent them in the first place. The winter-closure of one of the most historically significant areas for ski-mountaineering in the lower 48 would be a huge loss for ours, and future generations.

Yours truly,  Neil Grimaldi