Old school ice tools

I mean the ones with straight handles instead of a curve.  How much better are modern ones compared to the old school?  Clearly the old ones were fine; people put up ice routes far beyond what I have in mind using that gear.  

So what do you have in mind using the old gear?  I started with straight Chouinard tools back in the day, and now use Nomics.  For solely ice/alpine climbing, the change in shafts wasn't as important as the change in picks (e.g. replaceable, recurved).  The new picks are considerably easier to place.  Watch any of the old ice flics and compare the chopping we used to have to do versus the smooth one-swingers we're so used to now.  Straight shafts are fine for plunging in hard snow and moderate (to WI 2) ice.  Straight shafts pretty much require leashes, which are currently dinosaurs, although functional.  So if you want to go ice cragging with the boys, and don't want to get heckled, then you need something modern.  If you climb for your own interests, then use what you have.

With the newer handled bent shafts (e.g. Nomics), you get a lot more "hang time" on your tools, allowing you to place screws, etc.   Your forearms will last a lot longer.  For the common ice cragging (short or top-roped waterfall ice), the new stuff is the way better.  For mountaineering, the old straight shafts have their place.

There are some ancient Grivels available on eBay for cheap-cheap.  The pick isn't recurved though, so I might have my answer now.  I don't have much interest in climbing waterfall ice; these would be more as a tool to bring along if a route likely has some short icy stretches on it. I mostly climb in California, to give you an idea of what routes I'd be thinking about.  I'm not too interested in sustained ice climbing at the moment.  That said, based on your advice I'll probably just spring for modern ones.  I love getting a good deal, but your description sounds a bit dire.

Good advice, very useful knowledge, thanks!

Zach Anatta wrote: There are some ancient Grivels available on eBay for cheap-cheap.  The pick isn't recurved though, so I might have my answer now.  I don't have much interest in climbing waterfall ice; these would be more as a tool to bring along if a route likely has some short icy stretches on it. I mostly climb in California, to give you an idea of what routes I'd be thinking about.  I'm not too interested in sustained ice climbing at the moment.  That said, based on your advice I'll probably just spring for modern ones.  I love getting a good deal, but your description sounds a bit dire.

Good advice, very useful knowledge, thanks!

From what you describe, it sounds like the old tools may be entirely adequate.  For short icy sections, not too steep, then the classic stuff will work fine (do you have a photo of what you're interested in?).  The old curved picks work fine, with a natural swing, and are better for self arrest.  Pick up a copy of Chouinard's "Climbing Ice" to see what you can do with the old stuff.  If you're climbing similar stuff (apart from steep, sustained ice), then an old tool might suffice.  The newer tools like the Nomic, etc. are not as versatile in an alpine/mountaineering environment--awkward on low angled ice, short,  and you can't drive the shafts in. They are better for more technical uses.  Frozen neve gulleys, not too steep, give me an classic axe.  Hard/steep ice, give me my Nomics.

Zach - here’s my 2c...

No frickin comparison whatsoever.   The old straight shafts with leashes are like comparing a Sherman tank to a Porsche.    Sure they’ll both get you down the road a ways, but you’ll sure enjoy one significantly more.  

For what you describe, look at something like a Petzl Sum’tec.  Probably both weigh less than a single old x-15 /Chouinard and climb way easier.  or find some old carbon fiber black Prophets or better yet First gen Cobras cheap.  Even today, few things feel as solid as old Cobras especially on rockhard cold ice.  My sister in law refuses to give her’s up.  You’d probably feel super comfy leading up to 5’s with them and they’re decent for alpine.   Just do yourself a favor and skip past anything older than that.

If the ebay tools are described as "Grivel ice tools with leashes, 17'' climbing axes " (MP doesn't allow linking to ebay) I'd pass, based on what type of climbing you describe.  They're too short/technical for mountain use.  You might look at something like the Petzl Sumtec--a much more versatile tool.  I'm sure you could find a good used one.

How about Black Diamond Rage?

Maybe not: 
Manufacturer Announcements:
April 12, 2002: Mfg Order 1149 series recall (300 units) due to shaft breakage at grip/shaft interface [ BD Announcement ]

Not bad, if you’re going for value, anything in this range will work.  Of the “old school” used options IMO the best to consider would be the older Cobras or the Quarks.  You’d get “almost modern” performance on steeper ice as well as alpine use

ECD H wrote: a month ago, at an ice wall, i got the chance to climb with several old tools. they were the collection of a friend and the tools dated all from the 80s and were a mix of Grivels and long forgotten Japanese brands.
none were as hard to climb with as i imagined, but they did smash your knuckles up and the lack of pinky rests made them harder to just hang off (i didnt have any leashes), but for single pitches of easy WI4 completely doable, till your grip strength failed. bashed knuckles could mostly be overcome by adapting technique and picking different placements.
they were also heavier, which helps with momentum of swing but not with energy used.

so, my thoughts after a short experiment of 1; new tools allow easier technique and less placement strategy, straight tools on anything like thin ice or rock would be much harder; work out your technique before getting high on a route and hurting your hands; retro-fitting pinky rests would make a big difference; tools with even a slight curve to save your hands will help; everyone should try it to gain an appreciation of where tools are now at; you'll get up most stuff ok.

compared to my current tools (Grivel master alloys and eliteclimb raptors), if i had to give a number, i'd say the new ones are 20% better. 

Grivel use to make what were called 90 degree tools, red shaft with a sort of snipped off end; some of the finest ice tools I have ever used.

And my guess regarding the long forgotten Japanese tools: Kajita MK4s; Kajitax tools were way ahead of their time, even making a horizontal monopoint ,like 25 years ago.

Mark Pilate wrote: Not bad, if you’re going for value, anything in this range will work.  Of the “old school” used options IMO the best to consider would be the older Cobras or the Quarks.  You’d get “almost modern” performance on steeper ice as well as alpine use

That cracked me up while at the same time dating me.  I think of the Chouinard piolet, Lowe and Forrest tools as "old school".

Definitely didn’t intend to prematurely age you John. Haha.
 I just lumped together anything “pre-leashless” as old school. 

Mark Pilate wrote: Definitely didn’t intend to prematurely age you John. Haha.
 I just lumped together anything “pre-leashless” as old school. 

No worries.  I get a laugh when I see gear from the 1990s on eBay listed as "vintage".