Secondary points on crampons

Hi, first post here, can’t find my answer on the web.
I have g12 crampons with LS Nepal Cube boots. I am running Grivel’s own narrow toe bail, I should add. Fit is lock down tight, however, I can’t get those secondary points far enough forward to engage steep ice. I have read Will Gadd’s article about this, from forever ago. Yes, I have the bails set up to have the boot as far back as it will go on the pons.

Those of you who use horizontal front points, and those of you who say you can climb anything in this style pon, what is your setup? Which pon, which boot, and are your secondary points extending slightly forward of the boot?
thanks

G12 is more of a glacier walking crampon. They make the secondary points shorter for a more natural walking feel when you use them.

Scarpa Phantom Guide + Grivel G20 is my setup

Agree with Christoph here.  You can climb anything in anything, but the G12’s sweetspot is not steep ice.  It’s more general purpose.
I generally prefer a vertical mono the more technical the climb, but Ive been climbing  a snaggletooth lately (horizontal mono) and see no reason to change back so far.

There are so many choices to fit all the combos of boots, climbs, and preferences, but IMO if you had to own just one pair of crampons, I’d recommend the snaggletooth, but since you have the g12s already, I’d go with something like a Stinger or the Petzl or Grivel equivalents

You’re not likely to dial in you current setup significantly better than what you are experiencing now. 

ECD H wrote: pretty much that; steep ice specific crampons tend to have more aggressively forward oriented secondary points.

if that old WG article is the one where he says he climbs everything in horizontals its null and void now, hes been climbing in mono points for well over a decade.

I think you miss-represented Will Gadd's views on mono vs dual points.  Below is a quote and an article published in Spring 2018. The take away?  Dual points are likely the best choice for pure ice. 

"I’m done with vertical mono-points for hard ice climbing. They are a junk show for climbing really fresh ice. Ice on mixed routes often forms slowly and has good density, fresh ice is just too hollow for mono-points, Sabretooths work far better. I’m going evangelical on this, I just had my vertical monos rip too many times to ever want to use them again."

https://gripped.com/routes/15-takeaways-from-ice-climbing-in-norway/

 

Bruno Schull wrote:

I think you miss-represented Will Gadd's views on mono vs dual points.  Below is a quote and an article published in Spring 2018. The take away?  Dual points are likely the best choice for pure ice. 

"I’m done with vertical mono-points for hard ice climbing. They are a junk show for climbing really fresh ice. Ice on mixed routes often forms slowly and has good density, fresh ice is just too hollow for mono-points, Sabretooths work far better. I’m going evangelical on this, I just had my vertical monos rip too many times to ever want to use them again."

https://gripped.com/routes/15-takeaways-from-ice-climbing-in-norway/

 

According to the article, the 15 points was written in 2005 on his flight home from Norway ("In 2005, Will Gadd returned from Norway after establishing two big winter mixed routes. He penned his thoughts about the trip on the flight home to Canada.").  He also talks about going leashless finally.

Petzl Vasak, any boot.  Tremendous climb anything workhorse crampon.  Not a G12 fan.

Seems to me you need to get some mileage in and tune-up technique.  More important than gear.

I've been using sabretooth for a long time and my toe bails are set to front position. Though I've never owned g12s, I've switched leads with plenty of solid climbers who were on g12s. I'm not sure which position their bails were set to but I'd say try forward most position.  Boots I've used so far are Lowa Weisshorn, LS Napel, and North Face Verto Ice.  I think foot work is as important as how crampons are designed.

Skibo wrote:

According to the article, the 15 points was written in 2005 on his flight home from Norway ("In 2005, Will Gadd returned from Norway after establishing two big winter mixed routes. He penned his thoughts about the trip on the flight home to Canada.").  He also talks about going leashless finally.

Thanks for the correction Skibo--I missed that.  

I wonder if his views have changed?  Do you have any links in which WG sings the praises of monopoints for pure ice?  To be honest, I doubt he has switched over.  For mixed, sure.  But for pure ice, I'd be surprised.  Happy to be corrected though.

Here is Colin Haley's take:

"I prefer mono points for mixed climbing, and dual points for pure ice climbing. I think that the advantage of mono points on mixed terrain is greater than the advantage of dual points on pure ice, so I use DART crampons more often, even on a climb that is 80% pure ice and only 20% mixed climbing. My solo line on the North Buttress, however, was only about 5% mixed climbing, so I chose to take DARTWIN crampons."

For me and the ice that I typically climb (not super hard and dense) I find that dual points work much better.  Of course, for mixed, I'll use mono points.  The only place I was ever climbing pure ice and wished I had monopoints was on highly transformed, dense, alpine glacial slope, a kind of hard grey ice, as impenetrable as concrete.  

Anyway, the dual vs. mono debate is like so many other polarized discussions in climbing--for most people it's one or the other.  

chris magness wrote: Petzl Vasak, any boot.  Tremendous climb anything workhorse crampon.  Not a G12 fan.

Seems to me you need to get some mileage in and tune-up technique.  More important than gear.

Absolutely. Still learning this ice climbing thing! It is just that the (old) WG article sounded like my experience exactly. On near vertical ice, there really wasn’t a problem. Granted this is easy stuff for most of you here, but there were a couple of vertical sections and I really struggled to engage those secondary points. Also, everyone giving me tips, well, they were using far more aggressive crampons with secondary points that stick out. It would be nice to find a pon with an adjustable enough toe bail to either bring those points more under the foot for walking, or further forward for climbing, without owning multiple sets

Mark Pilate wrote: Agree with Christoph here.  You can climb anything in anything, but the G12’s sweetspot is not steep ice.  It’s more general purpose.
I generally prefer a vertical mono the more technical the climb, but Ive been climbing  a snaggletooth lately (horizontal mono) and see no reason to change back so far.

There are so many choices to fit all the combos of boots, climbs, and preferences, but IMO if you had to own just one pair of crampons, I’d recommend the snaggletooth, but since you have the g12s already, I’d go with something like a Stinger or the Petzl or Grivel equivalents

You’re not likely to dial in you current setup significantly better than what you are experiencing now. 

Not to jack the thread BUT, 

I got out of ice when all my old gear wore out in the early 2000's.

Current crop of climbing bud's all do day trips to the Brickyards, Sandstone and weekends to Orient/Kama bay.

What is the ideal set-up for climbing of this type (short steep ice) and how much can I realistically expect to spend on used equipment for a good time???

Don't need to worry about screws etc, just personal gear Boots/tools/pons

I already have All mountains, need picks.

\\\thanks

Hey Buck, you’re talking ideal locations for the Snaggletooth.  From fat 3’s to partially mixed 5’s

Check out the Duluth Ice Fest in the quarry this weekend.  I think there’s a gear swap and you can demo stuff.   Let you borrow or try some different sets of mine.  

A set of ‘tooth’s (snaggles or even Sabre), and a used set of Nomics and you’d be golden.  You need boots too?

Mark Pilate wrote: Hey Buck, you’re talking ideal locations for the Snaggletooth.  From fat 3’s to partially mixed 5’s

Check out the Duluth Ice Fest in the quarry this weekend.  I think there’s a gear swap and you can demo stuff.   Let you borrow or try some different sets of mine.  

A set of ‘tooth’s (snaggles or even Sabre), and a used set of Nomics and you’d be golden.  You need boots too?

Looking for advice on the boots...my old boots were Koflach Arctis and weighed about 7 pounds each and were stiffer than hell.  

What is the best boot for COLD MN weather and acceptable for WI 3-5? You know haw fickle the weather can be here.

My X All mtns(need picks) will work for now and I'll pick up crampons after I get boots to make sure they fit. My Buddies all wear Grivel G-20/Rambo's, so will probably get them as well.

Boots are so personal in terms of fit and comfort, but fwiw, my reasonably warm go to boot that still climbs great is the Lowa Silberhorn.  Nice subdued natural colors too - in contrast with some of my la Sportivas

Warren Crutcher wrote:

Absolutely. Still learning this ice climbing thing! It is just that the (old) WG article sounded like my experience exactly. On near vertical ice, there really wasn’t a problem. Granted this is easy stuff for most of you here, but there were a couple of vertical sections and I really struggled to engage those secondary points. Also, everyone giving me tips, well, they were using far more aggressive crampons with secondary points that stick out. It would be nice to find a pon with an adjustable enough toe bail to either bring those points more under the foot for walking, or further forward for climbing, without owning multiple sets

Technique!

You can track your tool placements with your feet and you can use your crampons to quickly chop edges that'll accept your secondary points.

WG article talks about need for secondary point contact.  You have to work for that regardless of crampon.  Even short, stubby secondary points will work.  You'll have sloppy feet, however, when your front points become too short.

Careful not to boot-out.  That is, keep your heels square to the ice (in 2 directions)- you might have a problem here.

I'd say yes- crampon problem.  But whereas you're newer to steep ice, learn how to climb the stuff before you invest in gear more gear.  Go out with someone who can coach and asses you for a day, you'll see improvement.

Also, try climbing a few pitches without tools.

Just wanted to post an update...it’s my first season on ice.
I finished an ice climbing course with Chamex guides, based in chamonix. We stayed in a great little hotel in Cogne, and did some multi pitch climbing. Highlight for me was Monday Money, WI4. My guide recommended a more technical crampons, and the first day we top roped here in France and practiced, practiced, practiced footwork. I used the Simond Vampire crampon and by the time we did Monday Money, I was feeling very confident with my feet. Looking forward to getting out again, perhaps the Arctic ice festival in early March. Thanks for your insights everyone!

Hey Warren, out of curiosity were those Vampires the guide set you up with configured as monos or duals?   

Mark Pilate wrote: Hey Warren, out of curiosity were those Vampires the guide set you up with configured as monos or duals?   

Hi Mark. I had them set up as duals. I bought them, and next time I use them I want to try monos, but I need to get a spacer kit for it. 

Cool.  Well enjoy what I’m sure is your new found love and addiction to ice climbing!  
Chamonix is as cool a place to learn as there is. 

Mark Pilate wrote: Cool.  Well enjoy what I’m sure is your new found love and addiction to ice climbing!  
Chamonix is as cool a place to learn as there is. 

Yeah it was fantastic! Hardly anyone using dual points also