Highlands Area Climbing

Why does the CCC and the mountain project admins not allow the posting of information about Wildcat cliff, sagee and other crags in the highlands area?
I’ve tried to post these areas several times but Steve, the area admin, removes them claiming the CCC told him to do so and that climbing isn’t legal on the National Forest?? Is this true?

Must be a CCC conspiracy. I think there was another thread floating around the last few weeks that this post would tie into neatly.

What’s the obsession with needing areas posted on mountain project? Tragedy of Commons. 

Austin Goff wrote: Must be a CCC conspiracy. I think there was another thread floating around the last few weeks that this post would tie into neatly.

What’s the obsession with needing areas posted on mountain project? Tragedy of Commons. 

I haven’t fully developed a conspiracy theory yet. I get that we don’t want the place to be over run and everyone needs an adventure. But look at Laurel knob or whiteside, hardly anyone climbs there relative to other areas in the region.

Wildcat has had access issues for years (as in decades) due to the private land owners at the top. Just because a rock is located on national forest land does not mean climbing is allowed there, it’s often more complicated than that. Although the real reason is the CCC is coming in black helicopters to take your cams to their secret hideout in the basement of a pizza restaurant in order to ensure that cliffs no longer exist because they are not on mountain project. 

Sage has insufficient parking for the internet.
3-4 cars max,
People lack the common sense to self regulate.
Lots of million dollar homes adjacent also,
I’m thinking blue tooth speakers wouldn’t fly.

Last weekend there were maybe 50 cars at big rock,
Not kidding.

Brian Payst wrote: Wildcat has had access issues for years (as in decades) due to the private land owners at the top. Just because a rock is located on national forest land does not mean climbing is allowed there, it’s often more complicated than that. Although the real reason is the CCC is coming in black helicopters to take your cams to their secret hideout in the basement of a pizza restaurant in order to ensure that cliffs no longer exist because they are not on mountain project. 

Can you explain any further? I don’t understand why climbing isn’t allowed in the National Forest?

Ezra Ellis wrote: Sage has insufficient parking for the internet.
3-4 cars max,
People lack the common sense to self regulate.
Lots of million dollar homes adjacent also,
I’m thinking blue tooth speaks wouldn’t fly.

Last weekend there were maybe 50 cars at big rock,
Not kidding.

What do Bluetooth speakers and nearby homes have to do with anything? So is there a limit on the number of parking spaces necessary for an area to be posted on mountain project?

Jcastleberry wrote:

Can you explain any further? I don’t understand why climbing isn’t allowed in the National Forest?

I never said that. It’s not an all or nothing thing. It’s completely normal for some areas in a national forest to be open to climbing and others not. Just like some areas are open to horse back riding or mountain biking, etc. and others not.  District rangers make those decisions guided by their forest management plans. 

Have the district rangers closed cliffs in the National Forests near highlands to climbing?

I think you are asking the wrong questions. Better questions to ask yourself would be - Is the area I want to publicize open to climbing? Who is the land manager or owner? What would be the potential impacts of an increase in climbers?  Could publicizing the area have negative impacts for access? Why isn’t this area already publicized since people seem to know about it and climb there? What can the locals tell me about the history of these routes I am repeating?

It's possible these areas are in a guidebook.   The new one "Southern Pisgah Rock and Ice" is fairly comprehensive for the area.   As an example, Hidden Valley is fully documented and published as a guidebook but is not allowed to be posted on Mtn Proj.  The reality is, the CCC is watching out for climbers' best interests.  They know more than we know, about complex issues of property and political factors.  We should defer.

Seriously everything doesn't have to be on the internet.  

The entitlement of today’s climbers just astounds me. ‘I wanna know how to get there, what to do, how hard it is, and I want to share it with everyone, because after all, how would anyone appreciate my ascents if they don’t know what they are.‘

There never used to be any restrictions on climbing in the NF, other than the falcons, and I doubt there is now. (BTW, it’s Nantahala NF there, not Pisgah, so I doubt any of it appears in the southern pisgah guide.) There has always been angst about guidebooks for the area because of the potential for clashes with local property owners, who do have much more money and clout. For example, Wright Wall, Wildcat, and Blackrock are all USFS land, but the land is private along the base of Wright and Blackrock and along the top of Wildcat, and those people are not that interested in sharing. If climbers became an intrusive nuisance, which would be inevitable if posted on MP, they would complain, a lot, to the USFS. One guess how that would turn out.

So we always kept things on the down low. I was at the 64 lookout once and there were a couple of kids with the (brand new) 3rd ed. of the Kelley guide trying to orient themselves on all that rock in front of them, and I had to tell them, ‘Every piece of rock you see has routes on it, and none of them are in that book,’ (that was not only prior to MP, it was before anyone knew what the internet was). If you wanted to climb that stuff you figured out how to get there as unobtrusively as possible and you explored. Sometimes you poached, but no apologies there, if people like me had not poached Laurel it almost certainly would not be CCC land today.

Jim pretty much nailed it.

It was great that Rumbling Bald's lot was expanded. Climbers parking illegally in neighborhoods because they arrived late was a huge problem. Expanding the parking isn't a luxury most crags have and climbers definitely proved that they couldnt be trusted to go somewhere else to climb. This has become a problem at Moores Wall, as well. There were several cars ticketed on x-mas day because climbers decided to park on the side of the road when the park was closed.

 There are many crags throughout the state with extremely high quality rock that can only accommodate 3-4 cars. If these were to be publicized the likely result would be home owners in the area complaints and eventual shutdown of the crag. This is especially a problem in the southeast with so much National Forest land connected directly to neighborhoods.

I believe the Wildcat posting was removed because whoever posted it did so using the name of a real local climber who had nothing to do with the posting, which rightfully upset him.  I have never heard that Wildcat was closed by NFS.  Does this mean Wright Wall and Raven are closed too?

Sean Cobourn wrote: I have never heard that Wildcat was closed by NFS.  Does this mean Wright Wall and Raven are closed too?

Nobody said they were, so not to my knowledge. There are adjacent property issues, which could lead to access issues (particularly at Wildcat), but from the forest service perspective they're pretty much hands-off at this point in time.

Ok  Thanks Brian

None of the walls discussed are closed. All have sensitive access and all are completely legal to climb when approached and descended in the proper manner. Especially wildcat which the actual top side of the cliff is on private property. The additions you have attempted to make to the site are very insensitive and lack basic direction to keep folks in line. This is much more important than spraying about some route you rap bolted or trying to blow up locations with limited parking. You and your buddies did enough trespassing to cause some serious damage to our reputation with the forest service and nearby land owners. If you are so concerned with making additions why don't you begin to update classic walls that have no access isssues? Whiteside, whiteside north face, big green, laurel knob. All these places and many many many more have zero access issues and could really use a complete tune up or addition to the data base.There is nothing wrong with sharing information about the other places you mentioned. But it requires a tactful stance and some guidance for those that don't know better. You posted sagee and rabun bald to mountain project and made  no comments as to how to park and maintain relationships with those in the area. These are places I (and others) have done trash clean ups and trail work at to keep everyone happy and keep climbers under the radar. Maybe if we start off by getting all those actions in line and getting other folks to conduct themselves in a similar manner some of these places can be shared easier. Instead of a bunch of folks acting entitled and doing as they please because rock climbing is rad. Fuck that man. Your concerns seem silly. Don't you live out west? Why are ou even so concerned with putting these places on blast? Is this to boost your mountain project score? Or so your name can go down in the books? Because if you're just trying to help some friends out with learning an area then you can just do what the rest of us do and draw up some topos. I would assume you know these areas quite well considering your intimate desire to share them. I'm sure you could create some really nice topos and descriptions. Or maybe you don't know these areas that well. Who knows. I will say it would be a lot easier to get folks on your side and sharing info if you quit behaving like a pecker head so much. Personally I'm with Jim on his stance and go out and get it. Way more fun in my book. If you want to go bust rad moves with "published grades" you can tick off on mountain project and write up descriptions for there are plenty of crags/walls you could do this for. But if you want an adventure pester someone for a horribly drawn topo, pack all the funky tricks you've got, bring a few bolts to replace the manky belays and go to the highlands plateau or cashiers valley. Don't forget the alpine start.

Brian Payst wrote:

Nobody said they were, so not to my knowledge. There are adjacent property issues, which could lead to access issues (particularly at Wildcat), but from the forest service perspective they're pretty much hands-off at this point in time.

Let me get this straight.

Because there is housing on top, exactly like at laurel knob, and because someone might say something.... no one Should share information on this piece of NATIONAL ForestWhere the rangers are “hands off” on climbing?

Did, Did I get that right?

I see a lot of opinions about a lot of things but we seem to have just clarified a fact that wildcat and sagee are both indeed public land where rock climbing is permitted to the public.

  

I will say ahead of time that public land ends before the top of the wild cat cliff I already know this.  
The concern from my end is that these public lands for appropriate public use are being controled by private parties.... seems like yall are hiding this stuff.  We have every right to go there and to share info on those public places as any other member of the public, but yet we have to deal with a group of bullies that show up and speak degradingly about conspiracies and call themselves a professional organization.
  

Why is the CCC a hate group? 
 
 
 
 
 
Why are you forever rounding out the corners on rules in your favor like serving alcohol at a state park at your climbing function which was a massssssssive potential access issue but then berating and attacking members of the community and causing huge issues when a bolt gets added that might not align with your cute ethics bible???? I hate a fuckin bolt too but jeeezus xhrist I love that bolt a hell of a lot more than another broken vertibrae, concussion, mouth full of broken teeth, torn acl or other issues i have.  I love that bolt more than reading another climber’s obituary or loosing a partner to injury.  And i will take another relatively experienced climbers word that something needed a bolt. Its suppose to be a fun sport. Conditions on all this stuff change ALL THE TIME we should be intentionally retro bolting more frequently, holds break often but new protection points dont just grow from seed.  A lot of this “FA party was right” stuff needs to go. Please take my name off everything at pumpkin town Im for sure not here to spray my name, just to experience nature in one of the best ways i have found and share that love with others. Damn I hate dealing with climbers, its my absolute least favorite part of climbing i said i quit climbing last spring anyway. 

 

Its cute all this is a big “adventure” for a lot of you but this is my back yard for me, its training grounds and tracking training, how many laps to equal this larger rock or simulate this grade V climb,  link up multi pitch ice with multi pitch trad hell yes....training for the actual unknown stuff, the actual stuff that hasnt been climbed, the 4000ft faces in south america or nepal the real deal stuff.  FAs here, well, Its mostly just a pain in the ass of trying to figure out which of you clowns climbed this or that in the 70s 80s or 90s and then drew one bad topo thats hidden in gregs pantie drawer. Thats why i want this stuff on the internet it shouldnt be such a closed group i shouldnt have to know the right people to get the info.  I haven’t sat here and added everything i could, there are certainly areas with true issues but too often I hear “wolf”  and too often the ccc seems to be a platform of hate due to ethics.

 

 

Thank you to those of you who are explaining things without being complete jerks it surely sways minds in your direction more than being abusive.

Jim Corbett wrote: The entitlement of today’s climbers just astounds me. ‘I wanna know how to get there, what to do, how hard it is, and I want to share it with everyone, because after all, how would anyone appreciate my ascents if they don’t know what they are.‘

There never used to be any restrictions on climbing in the NF, other than the falcons, and I doubt there is now. (BTW, it’s Nantahala NF there, not Pisgah, so I doubt any of it appears in the southern pisgah guide.) There has always been angst about guidebooks for the area because of the potential for clashes with local property owners, who do have much more money and clout. For example, Wright Wall, Wildcat, and Blackrock are all USFS land, but the land is private along the base of Wright and Blackrock and along the top of Wildcat, and those people are not that interested in sharing. If climbers became an intrusive nuisance, which would be inevitable if posted on MP, they would complain, a lot, to the USFS. One guess how that would turn out.

So we always kept things on the down low. I was at the 64 lookout once and there were a couple of kids with the (brand new) 3rd ed. of the Kelley guide trying to orient themselves on all that rock in front of them, and I had to tell them, ‘Every piece of rock you see has routes on it, and none of them are in that book,’ (that was not only prior to MP, it was before anyone knew what the internet was). If you wanted to climb that stuff you figured out how to get there as unobtrusively as possible and you explored. Sometimes you poached, but no apologies there, if people like me had not poached Laurel it almost certainly would not be CCC land today.

Thats a big assumption “those people” dont want to share, you are speaking for a lot of people with your opinions, they already signed up to be next to forrest land is what it is, rock isnt going anywhere.

Also a very big assumption that these areas are going to get swampped just cause it gets added to the internet. Why you so scared?

The reality is that more climbers are coming reguardless, and when there are legitimate ways to access legitimate public property we should share that with other climbers so as to actually avoid breaking laws and engrain responsible use instead of just telling everyone to sneek around just tell em to hike a lil extra.  The other reality is that laurel, whiteside and many other of these highlands formations arent red river gorge sandstone that is stacked with 5.12-5.13G within a 4min walk from the car so much of those crowds you speak of will never show up.

Of course there were 50 cars at big rock yall basically put up flashing neon lights there on social media where you toot your own horn about how great your organization is and how hundreds of new bolts have been added and a guide book.....but its a problem when others add areas oh right gottcha eyeroll

 how bout victory wall? Thats on mountain project i bet there wasnt ever more than two groups there at any given day in the past year, should we close the place because it needs more parking? Super similar to sagee in that reguard cept sagee has shit climbing, kinda funny that place even got bolts.  No loss to me if we never post that one its just the principle of it being public land.

Wouldnt it be fun to call the insurance company for laurel and tell them you have concerns about the bolting safety and ethics of the CCC?  How runouts are dangerous and LK is known for that stuff and due to their “code of ethics”  its going to stay that way.

 I find that it really lights that mystical fire under ass when you use the coin purse as a punching bag.  Damn i miss george carlin