Cardio and Climbing?

I've been looking around at different training plans and have seen a few contradicting each other about running for cardio in climbing. Some say it's great for base fitness, reducing body weight, etc. The latter says to "dis-engage in any form of regular leg training (running, biking, step aerobics, etc.) to reduce unhelpful muscle mass."

I was curious on others thoughts or or experience with it?

N=1 but Jonathan Siegrist mentions during his Enormocast episode that he credits a lot of his sport climbing success to his cardiovascular fitness.

It's a great episode and Jonathan seems like a genuinely nice, down to earth dude.

Edit: it also probably depends on what type of climbing you're training for. Mountaineering or 35+ meter redpoints? Sure. Bouldering? Not so much.

Jaden Aland wrote: I've been looking around at different training plans and have seen a few contradicting each other about running for cardio in climbing. Some say it's great for base fitness, reducing body weight, etc. The latter says to "dis-engage in any form of regular leg training (running, biking, step aerobics, etc.) to reduce unhelpful muscle mass."

I was curious on others thoughts or or experience with it?

I'm more apt to crush someone on a bike ride than any rock climb, ever - so that's where I'm coming. I think a good base fitness is important and maybe that means being able to run 5 miles at a moderate pace without dying, or squatting whatever pounds (I don't have exact things to hit at the ready) no matter the hobby you pursue. Helps you stay not injured. I don't think being hyper fit aerobically will help you in bouldering, sport climbing, or even trad climbing. There's exceptions to this rule: are you alpine climbing? Is your life on the line if you don't get off the mountain? etc. 

This though - this:

 The latter says to "dis-engage in any form of regular leg training (running, biking, step aerobics, etc.) to reduce unhelpful muscle mass."

Unless you're pushing what exact it is to, "rock climb" or are going to the Olympics,  this above is just another way of saying, "be scared of weight and give yourself an eating disorder". And I'm absolutely serious. Being in any high level competition form for any sport at an elite level isn't exactly healthy, so don't do it all that often.

.02

Eric Hörst says that cardio is essential for sport and trad EXCEPT at the expense of climbing specific training.

if you train cardio first and foremost, your climbing will suffer. even without the mass, the energy spent means less available on more important aspects.

as a result, strong climbers will usually train power and strength first. say, day 1 and 2. if they train endurance, core and shoulders on 3 4 and 5, there won't be much left for anything else. at this point, training cardio for a session or two to close out the week is fine. there won't be enough intensity to be building mass to a significant degree and no opportunity cost. biking or running is fine - the shoulders and fingers are likely barely mobile anyway.

this is generally speaking of course. if your specific vo2 max is trash, power will suffer. as a result, bouldering will suffer as well. just like vitamins, if you don't have enough it'll definitely hinder you. but once you have enough, getting more won't scale and produce better results.

Jaden, the quote you provided about dis-engaging in lower body training - what is the context? Are they talking about training for 5.14 and V-double digit roofs, etc? That’s pretty much the only context I can think of where a couple pounds of leg muscle could be so detrimental that it outweighs the numerous other health and training benefits of regular cardio. 

In reference to the OP's comment about too much cardio building useless muscle mass in the legs, this might be hearkening back to stories about early Euro climbers who would do things like hike ten steps then rest a bunch on steep approaches so that they wouldn't build any extra muscle. I've never heard firsthand accounts of this, just offhand comments and references around the campfire or in old magazine articles. I know that friends of mine who are/were pro cyclists are also similarly aggro about going out of their way to not build any upper body muscle.

Nowadays the consensus is that cardio is great as long as it is not taking away from climbing-specific training. I recall reading somewhere (I think by the Anderson bros.) that excessive cardio pretty much guarantees that you'll take in too many calories for elite-climbing-level weight management.

From an anecdotal standpoint, I have been doing HIIT cardio for a couple months during my training program and while my climbing grade hasn't increased much, I've found that the volume of climbing I'm able to do in a single day or session has increased substantially. I am able to climb at or near my limit for much longer than i previously was when I wasn't doing any cardio work.
I also feel that the type of cardio work you do plays a big factor. Long, low intensity, steady state runs or bikes won't hurt, but I'd say they won't help your climbing in any meaningful way (unless you're more of an alpine climber/mountaineer type). Short, high intensity aerobic workouts, on the other hand, are very similar to a redpoint climb from a cardiovascular standpoint.

I think cardio is good up until the point that it 1. triggers a hunger response and you start to take in a lot more calories, or 2. saps you of enough energy that it starts to hurt your climbing, or 3. Cuts into climbing time. I’m talking over the long haul, not just for the day. Unless you are doing serious strength building exercises, you wouldn’t put on that much leg weight. Even so, I think leg weight has less impact than upper body weight (closer to the foot holds/fulcrum) unless you are talking about wildly overhanging routes.

I climb(ed) my worst (grade-wise) when I was doing a lot of long runs in the mountains (marathon-ultra) and putting in 55+ miles/week. Although easy alpine routes were fun to cruise quickly, so if that is your goal…. My weight was down, but I had no extra energy and upper body strength took a hit. I find I climb pretty well when I do some MTN biking and tele skiing. The extra leg strength really pays off in pushing up on small footholds, general fitness for long approaches, etc. For running, I find that a few days a week of 40-80min runs and/or Tabata, etc is perfect for me.

When I started climbing four years ago I had been a regular but not serious road cyclist for 10 years. About six months in, I stopped commuting by bike (I now ride the bus), and lost about 12 lbs in leg muscle over three months. That made a huge difference in my climbing. Now that I’m pretty lean all over, I’ve been adding some cycling back in, but no serious hill climbing. I definitely feel better cardio could help. But so does 5 lbs body weight!

The Fitbit I’ve been wearing for the past couple years shows repeatedly that my heart rate is much higher during uphill approach hikes, compared to even the hardest, most desperate redpoints on overhanging sport climbs.

I have never once felt that my redpoint attempt was unsuccessful because I was out of breath. I’m not even sure that better cardio meaningfully improves my recovery between climbs, though that, at least, I find slightly more plausible.

My personal take is that there are things you should do because they are good for your overall health, not because it would specifically improve your climbing. Cardio falls in that category, IMO.

The majority of climbers aren’t elite athletes trying to eke out the next letter grade at the top of the grade scale, we all have room to improve in multiple ways, and with a wide margin—cardio, flexibility, weight, better diet, lots of things! We also have limited time to do it all, if we have a fulltime job, and a family. So it is less about finding perfection, and more about finding a balance, and managing priorities. 
If you have a desk job and don’t do anything other than climbing for fitness, you probably aren’t in great cardio shape. By all means, do some, it would be good for you. I actually found that my cardio had improved significantly when I had to change my parking location at work a few years back. I now have to walk uphill every day (about 15 min walk) to get to my car. I usually carry a heavy-ish laptop in a backpack, and try to make that walk as brisk as possible. Nothing dramatic, seems to be almost silly to mention a 15 min walk as exercise... but I do that consistently 5 days a week, and have been, for several years now, which I can’t say for any other cardio. And it has made a difference. 

Maximize you fun. Training routines which you dislike will only lessen the amount and intensity of your training.  

If your competitive enough that you hate losing more than you hate training, you’ll probably chew through any routines that boost your performance and dump the routines that waste your energy. 
Beware trainers with degrees from obscure institutions in strange subjects.  Pontificators and blow hards abound.  

I think it all depends where you are and what type of routes you're climbing.

I started climbing with a friend around the same time that has a very similar athletic background and strengths as I do with the exception of cardio where I'll drop him pretty quickly.  I haven't noticed it having an impact anywhere in climbing other than on overhanging sport routes where his cardio strain clearly causes him to pump out quicker.  

I'd say if you're getting winded while climbing cardio will help you push higher grades but has a limited effect for single pitch climbing otherwise.

The best climbers in my gym are also part of the gym's running club. They crush around V12/5.14. Doesnt seem to be hurting them.

I'm heavier if I don't do cardio and that makes climbing long routes more difficult.

Anecdote: I spent a month in Rocklands bouldering. Food was cheap and sea food was abundant. I came home fat with strong fingers. My shoulders were tweaky, so I took a few weeks off from climbing and ran. I dropped a few pounds. When I resumed climbing, I had the strongest month of sport climbing in my life.

When I look at training advice from people like Eric Horst or Jonathan Seigrist, I have to remind myself that these people are climbing at an elite level. Leg mass probably matters at 5.14+. As a regular Joe projecting 5.12s, I'm not convinced that it matters very much. And as a person with a full-time job and busy life, I tend to believe that damn near any exercise I do is better than nothing. If I only have time for a two mile run, I do it. 

C Archibolt wrote: When I look at training advice from people like Eric Horst or Jonathan Seigrist, I have to remind myself that these people are climbing at an elite level. Leg mass probably matters at 5.14+. As a regular Joe projecting 5.12s, I'm not convinced that it matters very much. And as a person with a full-time job and busy life, I tend to believe that damn near any exercise I do is better than nothing. If I only have time for a two mile run, I do it. 

This.  And (I think it was Dan John who said it), it's important to "Keep the goal the goal."  

If going on a run blows out your legs or core so that it detracts from climbing or training what you had planned, then don't do it.  If you're still able to do your climbing stuff, no harm for the vast majority of us.  The same can be said for weight training, different sports, etc.

Cardio can be beneficial simply because it clears your head. I feel great after going outside and exercising even if my day really sucked.

All this info has been really insightful and great contrast. To add more context, I'm focusing my training for all-around climbing fitness; concentrating more towards alpinism, big wall strength/endurance, and sport/trad redpoint pushing 5.13. Nothing world-class by any means.

Whenever I do my cardio, it's usually 2-3 miles AFTER a good climbing sesh or hangboarding about 2-3x a week. I don't specifically make it part of my training, just whenever I have some energy left after my primary training workouts and I want to work up a sweat. 

Jaden, the quote you provided about dis-engaging in lower body training - what is the context? Are they talking about training for 5.14 and V-double digit roofs, etc? That’s pretty much the only context I can think of where a couple pounds of leg muscle could be so detrimental that it outweighs the numerous other health and training benefits of regular cardio. 

The idea comes of cutting out the cardio comes from the "The Rock Climbers Training Manual" by the Andersons in the Strength chapter talking about muscle hypertrophy as a side note. There is no specific context they mention as to what it would be most beneficial for.

From what I've gathered so far,  it seems rational to me that doing light cardio to supplement your overall base fitness that doesn't detriment climbing training seems perfectly fine. 

Jaden Aland wrote: All this info has been really insightful and great contrast. To add more context, I'm focusing my training for all-around climbing fitness; concentrating more towards alpinism, big wall strength/endurance, and sport/trad redpoint pushing 5.13. Nothing world-class by any means.

Alpinism? Do cardio. A lot. Period.

Jaden Aland wrote: All this info has been really insightful and great contrast. To add more context, I'm focusing my training for all-around climbing fitness; concentrating more towards alpinism, big wall strength/endurance, and sport/trad redpoint pushing 5.13. Nothing world-class by any means.

Whenever I do my cardio, it's usually 2-3 miles AFTER a good climbing sesh or hangboarding about 2-3x a week. I don't specifically make it part of my training, just whenever I have some energy left after my primary training workouts and I want to work up a sweat.

The idea comes of cutting out the cardio comes from the "The Rock Climbers Training Manual" by the Andersons in the Strength chapter talking about muscle hypertrophy as a side note. There is no specific context they mention as to what it would be most beneficial for.

From what I've gathered so far,  it seems rational to me that doing light cardio to supplement your overall base fitness that doesn't detriment climbing training seems perfectly fine. 

Yeah if Alpinism is your gig, better cardiovascular health is key. For sport/trad I say its less important as a training mechanism than a way to gain or maintain general base fitness. I believe Dr. Tyler Nelson (C4HP climbing coach) stated that cardio running won't improve climbing-specific performance since the cardio/blood flow recruitment mechanisms of your forearms and finger are much more specific than the rest of the body, but it doesn't hurt for overall body health. 

For running muscular atrophy, unless you are pumping leg presses, squats, and uphill/stair climbs I don't think that's an issue. And since you said you run 2-3 miles, water weight and additional muscle weight in the legs would be negligible. I run 6 miles a couple of days a week while training and climbing and never saw my weight change; so don't worry about it. 

C Archibolt wrote: Anecdote: I spent a month in Rocklands bouldering. Food was cheap and sea food was abundant. I came home fat with strong fingers. My shoulders were tweaky, so I took a few weeks off from climbing and ran. I dropped a few pounds. When I resumed climbing, I had the strongest month of sport climbing in my life

You essentially described discovering periodization. Which is a good. Now think of what you could do with this protocol if you didn't get injured, and didn't need to stop climbing.