Crevasse rescue

Hi
Over on UKC I have started a post on trying to find a resource on crevasse rescue for a party of two that isn't somewhat compromised or impossible to implement.

It would be great if others could comment here on MP or discuss their 2 person rescues. Thanks

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/winter_climbing/crevasse_rescue-714366?new=9111097#x9111097

Issues with the resources I have found include the following.

1 recommending brake knots but not explaing if these could be dragged back through the snow

2 how to pass these knots through the trax. Assuming you can pull with them in place

3 the brake knots magicly disappearing part way through the video

4 recommending knots, 20m between climbers and the climbers using an indirect haul off the anchor . This would require a 112m rope.

5 7 to 1 or 5 to 1 hauls off a snow anchor.

6 neatly slipping the padding sack under an unweighted rope

7 not cleaning the lip ready for exit

8 often several of the above

The brake knots are used along with a drop loop or drop C with a pulley and locker, such that the haul line is separate from the victim's tie in. I've been told by people with actual rescue experience that a simple z pulley is not enough mechancial advantage for a single rescuer if the victim cannot assist with his prussic.

Shhhh.  You guys are getting close to revealing the long kept secret that crevasse rescue is not a thing.  

Here’s the best crevasse self rescue gear to own ( way simpler to employ than micro traxions, compounded z-drags and such shenanigans all built on sketchy anchors  buried in the snow.......the SNOW I say.  

(Available here on MP if you can figure out what name he’s going by)

Mark Smiley did a video series on crevasse rescue.  He is an IMFGA guide who has a lot of experience in that terrain.  IMHO I think they are great.  They aren't the free youtube videos that have the inconsistencies, maybe like 30 or 40 bucks for the course.... Here is a link to his website if interested.  

https://smileysproject.smugmug.com/

Forget the c on z, for two person travel this is the way to go.

There are lots of books on the subject, that include many tricks, options, and setups.

David, I like the discussion of the drop loop and other systems in Chauvin and Coppolillo's "The Mountain Guide Manual" on p. 214 ff.

If you are not looking for any compromise you are not looking for a two person system.

Yes there are a lot of issues in those vids. You’re going to spend hours passing knots and doing all kinds of theoretically possible activity if you try to solo haul an incapacitated partner.

While you should think about and practice doing some of that to increase your toolkit you need to be real about the fact that your system is crevasse arrest not crevasse rescue when you elect to travel as a pair. 

We've got a pretty solid introduction to crevasse rescue if you start here and continue through the articles by clicking NEXT at the bottom of each page: https://m.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/Simultaneous-progression-and-fall-arrest-in-a-crevasse-with-the-RAD-SYSTEM

Some highlights include the dynamic vs static rope debate (complicated!) and the basic concepts involved in transferring the victim's weight to the anchor. 

There is no single right answer, it's very situational and highly dependent on the location, the hazards, the exposure to crevasse fall, how many other people are around, the team's experience, etc.  For example, the solution for 2 people on a remove Alaskan glacier is likely very different than a reasonable approach for a 2 person team on an Alps or Cascades trade route with lots of traffic and parties.

I think there is almost always too much emphasis on hauling in crevasse rescue.  If you have braking knots and your partner goes in, the first course of action should be for them to self rescue by climbing out or ascending the rope.  Hauling should be a last resort when all else fails.

With a 60m rope, if you have 15m between partners plus knots, the remaining ~40m should be plenty for both people to carry coils to do a rescue.  15m between parties is probably sufficient for everything in the lower 48, Euro alps, NZ southern alps, etc.  That being said, I have zero issues traveling on a popular glacier approach with 2 climbers on a skinny 30m rope.

It's too detailed for me to type out here, but hauling through knots is not particularly difficult if you practice it.  I always set my system up so that I'm hauling through a capture pulley.  This allows me to easily move the ti-bloc, ascender, prussik, etc past each knot and continue hauling without having to constantly transfer the load.  In a two person system having knots between each person is almost a requirement to be able to arrest a true crevasse fall.  If you have a long enough rope you can still do the drop loop method with the remaining slack.  For moderate crevasse travel without technical climbing I usually bring a 30m rope so hauling through knots is the planned approach.  Petzl has some great write ups on crevasse techniques.  Scroll down to the bottom of the list for the crevasse articles.   petzl.com/US/en/Sport/Ski-t…;

I actually purchased Smiley's course for a recent trip with some folks who were new to crevasse rescue. There is a little bit of sticker shock with the $99 price tag, but I think it's worth it. He actually does update it as new gear comes out and as he tests and utilizes new techniques (latest update was in June '19 I believe). I think it's a very good price for access to an IFMGA guide's protocol for crevasse rescue.

The biggest reason I ended up purchasing was to have access to a somewhat "definitive" resource that avoided contradictions and ambiguity. I think it accomplishes that well. Of course, nothing replaces practice and hands-on time with the systems, but I think it's a nice piece to incorporate into crevasse rescue training along with all the other suggestions in this thread.

Kyle Tarry wroteI think there is almost always too much emphasis on hauling in crevasse rescue.  If you have braking knots and your partner goes in, the first course of action should be for them to self rescue by climbing out or ascending the rope.  Hauling should be a last resort when all else fails.

This is dead on.

You definitely need to know how to haul. But do realize that needing to haul an incapacitated partner out is very unlikely, they'll probably prussik out on their own. So don't sweat it too much if hauling seems like a dismal prospect, because it kind of is.

Kyle Tarry wrote: ...

With a 60m rope, if you have 15m between partners plus knots, the remaining ~40m should be plenty for both people to carry coils to do a rescue.  15m between parties is probably sufficient for everything in the lower 48, Euro alps, NZ southern alps, etc.  

I think this is the right approach. Last summer, my wife popped into a little crevasse near the Vignettes hut. The braking knots did all the work - I was able to hold her weight just by dropping to a knee. Then she clambered right out. The only casualty was a water bottle that fell out of a pack pocket. 

This is the method I learned:

http://blog.alpineinstitute.com/2010/05/crevasse-rescue-review.html

Also, check out the ENSA video for some real world testing regarding knots in the rope. Some very interesting data here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgNR-VZMwHo

And for a simple way to pass knots:

https://www.petzl.com/BE/en/Sport/Crevasse-fall--hauling-on-a-rope-with-knots

One thing to keep in mind which has not already been mentioned is that in a 2 person rescue the hardest part will be establishing the anchor while holding the full weight of your partner. If you have never tried doing this in a mock scenario it is an eye opening experience, knots or no knots. Way harder than it looks and seems on "paper".

Jeremy Cote wrote: 

One thing to keep in mind which has not already been mentioned is that in a 2 person rescue the hardest part will be establishing the anchor while holding the full weight of your partner. If you have never tried doing this in a mock scenario it is an eye opening experience, knots or no knots. Way harder than it looks and seems on "paper".

if you're lucky enough to arrest the fall..also not a trivial step in the process...

curt86iroc wrote:

if you're lucky enough to arrest the fall..also not a trivial step in the process...

There was a video kicking around years ago of crevasse rescue training showing rope team members getting jacked off their feet. Although I seem to remember this was illustrating the potential hazards of pre-rigging a chest harness and running the rope through it while in travel mode.

Jeremy Cote wrote:

There was a video kicking around years ago of crevasse rescue training showing rope team members getting jacked off their feet. Although I seem to remember this was illustrating the potential hazards of pre-rigging a chest harness and running the rope through it while in travel mode.

i remember the same exact video, but for the life of me i can't find it

I recall the video showing not a single team being able to actually arrest a simple fall...

here is a great video showing how difficult it is to crevasse rescue. It takes 4 chamonix professional rescuers multiple hours to get two people out of a crevasse.

https://gripped.com/video/watch-epic-crevasse-rescue-in-chamonix-by-top-climber/