Collagen supplements

Mmm, I does like me some Jello!

Nick Drake wrote:

Keith Baar isn't trying to make money off of you

Yikes though - am I reading this right -  a group of 8 in the experiment? I think this would be categorized in, "promising", and not, "fact" - yeah?

For sure.  They were also taking blood from the subjects and putting them onto tendons growing in Petri dishes - this wasn't done in the body.  Definitely not perfect, but good evidence.

Here is a good review on the research that exists - https://beta-angel.com/collagen-peptides/

Great site beyond this article as well, for those interested in the current science of climbing. 

Long Ranger wrote: Yikes though - am I reading this right -  a group of 8 in the experiment? I think this would be categorized in, "promising", and not, "fact" - yeah?

No 8 were used to create the blood drawn after collagen/placebo and exercise to supply blood. Then their blood samples were used to feed the tendons being grown on Petri dishes. 

Hey Long Ranger, I think you are conflating collagen and Keratin.  Collagen is a base protein for connective tissue, while keratin makes up hair, nails, and skin mostly.  http://www.differencebetween.net/science/difference-between-collagen-and-keratin/ 

David Rivers wrote: Hey Long Ranger, I think you are conflating collagen and Keratin.  Collagen is a base protein for connective tissue, while keratin makes up hair, nails, and skin mostly.  http://www.differencebetween.net/science/difference-between-collagen-and-keratin/ 

You are right, I am wrong, and I apologize for the wrong information I have posted. I think when I was like, 6 I was told Jello was made of horse hooves, and like believing in the Easter Bunny, it's been a difficult lie to shake.

@Long Ranger-

 In the grand scheme of life, not that big a deal, but when considering supplementation for supporting connective tissue or for growing hair and nails, maybe more important.  A lifetime ago I was a bio student studying vertebrate anatomy, so some alarm went off deep in my brain at comment in a previous thread. 

Question for the collagen users-
what's the cheapest way to go?

If you buy the Horst product you can get it as low as about $1/day.

But it seems like it is just collagen with some Vitamin C.
Plus leucine and tryptophan added to make it a  more complete protein and potentially signal muscle growth as well as tendon growth.

Leucine and tryptophan powder is pretty cheap on amazon, as is Vitamin C.

On the other hand, the Horst product is not that expensive and flavorless. Dissolves easily in hot water, less so in cold unfortunately.

I've looked at a bunch of the collagen research and it's not conclusive by any means.
However, the side effect profile is non-existent, so maybe what the hell, give it a try.

I don't know if it is the absolute cheapest but I get the big blue jugs from Costco - Vital Proteins. 

grog m wrote: I don't know if it is the absolute cheapest but I get the big blue jugs from Costco - Vital Proteins. 

That's what I've been using as well. Vitamin C is cheap if you take a pill, but fruit works also 

Do you guys remember the approximate price?
The cheapest I can find on Amazon is about $0.70/dose.
Not a costco member, although will probably join next month to get cheaper hearing aids.
Too bad they don't sell climbing gear

Its like 30$ for the 24oz tub. I use 1-2 scoops in a cup of coffee. No change in flavor. 

$29.99 in store for a 24oz. So that's about 34 servings (serving is actually 2 scoops or 20 grams to get you the right amount of collagen, a 10g serving wouldn't get the levels elevated in your blood enough per Baar's study).
Bonus, if you get a Costco membership you're keeping me employed Mark ;)

Look, the Horst product has two things that other collagen products are missing: Tryptophan and Vitamin C which helps absorption (or synthesis?! but 50mg?! all cited studies use around 150mg); additionally it has more of 3 other AA: Leucine, Isoleucine, and Valine. You know what has a ton of these 4 AA? That's right, a normal dose of whey protein. So instead of spending a shit load on some "supercharged" collagen BS, here is what you can do: mix a scoop of the "normal" collagen powder with a scoop of your favorite whey protein (best to use lactose-free whey, imo), and have a couple of Vit. C gummies alongside, which happens to be also rich in collagen protein. Whoop whoop! (Here is where i say, trust me - I'm a doctor.)

Fan Yang wrote: Look, the Horst product has two things that other collagen products are missing: Tryptophan and Vitamin C which helps absorption (or synthesis?! but 50mg?! all cited studies use around 150mg); additionally it has more of 3 other AA: Leucine, Isoleucine, and Valine. You know what has a ton of these 4 AA? That's right, a normal dose of whey protein. So instead of spending a shit load on some "supercharged" collagen BS, here is what you can do: mix a scoop of the "normal" collagen powder with a scoop of your favorite whey protein (best to use lactose-free whey, imo), and have a couple of Vit. C gummies alongside, which happens to be also rich in collagen protein. Whoop whoop! (Here is where i say, trust me - I'm a doctor.)

Thoughts on this excerpt? 

Thanks for the question. I like your analysis and explanation for why you argue against dietary collagen. In principle, I agree with everything you’ve said. There hasn’t been a trial comparing collagen to whey protein. We are doing that at the moment, but these studies are not easy. It is really hard to measure collagen synthesis in people.

The only data I know of as to why collagen might be useful compared to whey protein for connective tissue comes from Luc van Loon. He has found that when you take whey protein, glycine levels in the blood drop significantly, to the point that glycine (every third amino acid in collagen) could limit collagen synthesis. The data haven’t been published yet, but it is really interesting and suggests that having some glycine rich protein may be necessary for collagen synthesis. 

Link

Glycine levels could drop due to increased levels of protein synthesis with the whey protein not providing enough glycine to keep everything going. Just a guess, we'll have to wait for the Luc van Loon paper.

Collagen contains a good amount of two pretty uncommon amino acids, hydroxyproline and hydroxylysine. I doubt whey protein has them in the same relative quantities, which could be an argument for taking collagen supplement over whey protein if you really want to boost collagen production. I really doubt the gain is worth the 10x cost though. I'd take whey instead. 

Fan Yang wrote: Look, the Horst product has two things that other collagen products are missing: Tryptophan and Vitamin C which helps absorption (or synthesis?! but 50mg?! all cited studies use around 150mg); additionally it has more of 3 other AA: Leucine, Isoleucine, and Valine. You know what has a ton of these 4 AA? That's right, a normal dose of whey protein. So instead of spending a shit load on some "supercharged" collagen BS, here is what you can do: mix a scoop of the "normal" collagen powder with a scoop of your favorite whey protein (best to use lactose-free whey, imo), and have a couple of Vit. C gummies alongside, which happens to be also rich in collagen protein. Whoop whoop! (Here is where i say, trust me - I'm a doctor.)

If you add a scoop of whey protein to the collagen, aren't you basically doubling the cost for what are already questionable gains? 

What exactly is Horst's rationale for the added leucine, isoleucine and valine? 

Adding BCAAs? Thought the evidence never really panned out for them.

And fwiw, I believe the original Barr study used 48 mg of Vitamin C.

Mark E Dixon wrote: What exactly is Horst's rationale for the added leucine, isoleucine and valine? 

Adding BCAAs? Thought the evidence never really panned out for them.

It's just fashion. It's what other people selling supplements are doing. Horst is just following the trend and using his name as a trainer/author to help sell supplements. People are  just throwing things at a wall and seeing what sticks. Thankfully, no one is going to get sick doing so. Horst is making money. His customers think they're being helped, even if it's in an infinitesimal way. Faith is a powerful thing. Everyone wins. Save your money, and try to eat foods that are good for you.

Mark E Dixon wrote:

If you add a scoop of whey protein to the collagen, aren't you basically doubling the cost for what are already questionable gains? 

What exactly is Horst's rationale for the added leucine, isoleucine and valine? 

Adding BCAAs? Thought the evidence never really panned out for them.

And fwiw, I believe the original Barr study used 48 mg of Vitamin C.

A local crusher who warms up on my projects strongly recommends BCAA, says it allows him to project hard multiple days in a row.