Berkeley Ironworks Training Facility Petition

Hey Kevin, I think you're missing the point a bit. We have almost zero alternative options and what's mostly frustrating is the details in what they do and how it relates to what members are asking for.  Plus screw ups along the way. The Albany gym they announced is MIA and while Pacific Pipe is nice, members have been asking for a Moon Board or Tension Board for a while. Either takes up very little space. Instead they paid 10x for the Kilter due to their relationship with the company. When it was broken it sat for 3 weeks. When we asked if they could install a hangboard so that the gyms all had the same board, there was resistance. Meanwhile they add a bunch of lifting equipment and a brewery instead.  Then, when they finally build what members have been asking for, wait, no one was asking for a kids facility since we are not kids and almost none of us have kids on the youth team. Oh well, maybe we can still use it? Oh no, not open during hours where anyone else with a family can go. Great. At least I can have all those new rope walls at MC and Pacific Pipe that I don't use since I'm a boulderer that lives in the East Bay.  

Oh and as someone that doesn't fit into any of those groups and doesn't want to pay $200 to go listen to Lynn give generic advice for an hour, I could give a shit less about those classes.  My SO, who does fit into several of those groups also doesn't care about those things. Have you actually seen most of the meetups? Oh and those don't actually require facilities that members have to advocate for and request. I am glad they exist, but it's not something I am invested in.

What most of us have noticed is that when we go to other gyms they actually seem to care about having the things their members want and use. Momentum Seattle is a great example and is also a chain. Their gyms have Tension Boards, lifting areas/classes, and many similar community events. When I was visiting smaller gyms last year in other states they took member requests when remodeling and built a spray wall, circuit wall, and boards as well because that's what members asked for. The Bloc in Tucson, AZ is a tiny gym with a training room for their rec team. They keep it open to everyone as long as the rec team isn't on that piece of equipment.

Have you ever attended their comps? They're notoriously becoming one of the worst things you can actually do with your climbing time and Battle of the Bay was almost nothing but complaints from a lot of attendees due to crowding.

Touchstone cares most about their image and profits and less about their members. They want to image of having a good youth team and cool bro shit like a microbrewery and fancy looking crowded top rope walls to attract all the new gumbies that think they're 5.11 climbers because they 3 hung a jug haul. They haven't given a shit about climbers who actually care about the facility beyond how many routes it has or how big it is for a long time.

I personally wanted to see the membership increase utilized in improving the current gyms, not in building a brand new gym which is so specific.  

Karl Walters wrote: Hey Kevin, I think you're missing the point a bit. We have almost zero alternative options and what's mostly frustrating is the details in what they do and how it relates to what members are asking for.  Plus screw ups along the way. The Albany gym they announced is MIA and while Pacific Pipe is nice, members have been asking for a Moon Board or Tension Board for a while. Either takes up very little space. Instead they paid 10x for the Kilter due to their relationship with the company. When it was broken it sat for 3 weeks. When we asked if they could install a hangboard so that the gyms all had the same board, there was resistance. Meanwhile they add a bunch of lifting equipment and a brewery instead.  Then, when they finally build what members have been asking for, wait, no one was asking for a kids facility since we are not kids and almost none of us have kids on the youth team. Oh well, maybe we can still use it? Oh no, not open during hours where anyone else with a family can go. Great. At least I can have all those new rope walls at MC and Pacific Pipe that I don't use since I'm a boulderer that lives in the East Bay.  

Oh and as someone that doesn't fit into any of those groups and doesn't want to pay $200 to go listen to Lynn give generic advice for an hour, I could give a shit less about those classes.  My SO, who does fit into several of those groups also doesn't care about those things. Have you actually seen most of the meetups? Oh and those don't actually require facilities that members have to advocate for and request. I am glad they exist, but it's not something I am invested in.

What most of us have noticed is that when we go to other gyms they actually seem to care about having the things their members want and use. Momentum Seattle is a great example and is also a chain. Their gyms have Tension Boards, lifting areas/classes, and many similar community events. When I was visiting smaller gyms last year in other states they took member requests when remodeling and built a spray wall, circuit wall, and boards as well because that's what members asked for. The Bloc in Tucson, AZ is a tiny gym with a training room for their rec team. They keep it open to everyone as long as the rec team isn't on that piece of equipment.

Have you ever attended their comps? They're notoriously becoming one of the worst things you can actually do with your climbing time and Battle of the Bay was almost nothing but complaints from a lot of attendees due to crowding.

Touchstone cares most about their image and profits and less about their members. They want to image of having a good youth team and cool bro shit like a microbrewery and fancy looking crowded top rope walls to attract all the new gumbies that think they're 5.11 climbers because they 3 hung a jug haul. They haven't given a shit about climbers who actually care about the facility beyond how many routes it has or how big it is for a long time.

TLDR: I'm a grumpy old man without kids. So I don't get the benefits of the women's comp or the youth team. Why doesn't. this for-profit company run like a nonprofit and spend all it's money on what I want.

Side thought: I didn't know that Touchstone memberships were the same price everywhere. So I'm paying the same in SF as someone in Sacramento?! That's not really fair to those peeps.

The recent improvements in the hangboard area came from members getting sick and tired of nothing working so they fixed the pulleys themselves. Not long ago members asked for a similar Transgression Board for GW to match the ones at the other gyms. They had to buy it themselves and then it sat for months before it was put up.

But instead there are tons of lifting platforms and racks, which makes sense to put money into given it's a climbing gym.  The Crossfit area at GW has tons of broken equipment, mismatched plates, and the rate increase there hasn't fixed it.  But instead we get a room for cardio boxing that sits empty most of the day and people waiting in a queue to use the hangboards.

Tanner Orland wrote: I personally wanted to see the membership increase utilized in improving the current gyms, not in building a brand new gym which is so specific.  

I am not a Touch Stone member, but for me I either want my membership goes to the current gym improvement or new climbing gym close to me.

Tanner Orland wrote: I personally wanted to see the membership increase utilized in improving the current gyms, not in building a brand new gym which is so specific.  

The facility is in a building next to the ironworks, so it's best thought of an expansion of an existing facility

caughtinside wrote: It is funny how everyone is into different stuff. I want more climbing and bouldering... but more hangboarding? That has got to be a very small group who wants that. 

There is a large group of Bay Area climbers focused around sport climbing, bouldering, and trad that are interested in training and pushing their grades higher with that approach. The new TRAINING facility and yes, hangboards, are part of that. So much so that most modern gyms and chains view the equipment as standard and include the implements.  There are not many gyms in Utah that are unable to simply put up a hangboard. Most have one or more commercial training boards. Even old school single location gyms can manage to put equipment up. The fact that BIW spend thousands on lifting equipment for the maybe 1-2 dozen lifters that go there and neglected climbing equipment that is easy to fix just kinda shows where the focus is.

On the same coin I often wonder how many people actually say anything to the staff? I have and found certain staff members more or less receptive, but often they seemed more concerned with their opinions and were completely unfriendly. I didn't start this thread, but can see why someone is pissed off enough to do so. I certainly am not alone in these concerns and many others voice them all the time, but I don't think they listen or most people feel they're able to actually say anything. I will say that the new Dogpatch manager has been awesome to deal with and has been super responsive to suggestions.

Now I will admit that the vast majority of climbers probably don't care, especially newer ones that are just stoked on getting on the wall. That is fine and where Touchstone rightfully spends their money and focus.  With that said anything else comes down to what the members ask for. I'm all for them having as many inclusive meetups and groups as they want, but sometimes get the sense that they just want to use said events to say "look, we're socially conscious and progressive" to improve their brand. At this year's Womxn Up event most of the classes were $175+.  Many did not full up or remained half fill. Regardless of your gender or orientation, that is a ton of money to spend to get generic information you could get online or taking videos of your climbing.  You will see that advertised often, yet they left spinning holds on the Dogpatch spray for 2 months because they didn't use the right t-nuts. The plywood also flexes because they used thin ply and just didn't build the wall correctly. These are just a few examples of them rushing stuff or half-assing it because they're not interested in the member experience other than crowding. Again, I get that from their perspective, however, I don't get why they would choose to then marginalize the people that care. It pushes more people to PG and other gyms (I know probably a dozen people that cancelled memberships for Bridges, which is much smaller, simply because it is less crowded and has some pretty simple, but well maintained training equipment.

mpech wrote: kevin-- the people complaining were both located in sacramento-- they don't really reap the benefits of all the new spaces+ improvements to the bay area gyms

Lol, I noticed the Pipeworks name but figured it was a mistake coming from Touchstone's stupid decision to name their new gym in Oakland Pacific Pipe which is guaranteed to cause confusion between Pipeworks and Pacific Pipe moving forward once the new gym opens.  

TaylorP wroteSide thought: I didn't know that Touchstone memberships were the same price everywhere. So I'm paying the same in SF as someone in Sacramento?! That's not really fair to those peeps.

They're not, unless they've changed policies recently. I know that DRG and GWPC had minimally different membership prices; something that I discovered when I changed my home gym from DRG to GWPC years ago.

side rant-- wish that the touchstone gyms would fix their cracks-- they are terribly designed, and all have become slippery as hell. 

Karl Walters wrote: Hey Kevin, I think you're missing the point a bit. 

Every blind person touching different parts of the elephant thinks the other blind people are missing the point. 

Plus screw ups along the way. The Albany gym they announced is MIA 

The Albany gym was announced to have received their building permits as of Dec 5th of this year.

Then, when they finally build what members have been asking for, wait, no one was asking for a kids facility since we are not kids and almost none of us have kids on the youth team. 

What have members been asking for? According to this thread, members have been asking for more space. When one rephrases your sentence as "No one was asking for more space to be opened up by the youth team being given a dedicated space that will also be available to members as well even though we are not kids and almost none of us have kids on the youth team, also get of my lawn" it starts to hold a bit less water

Oh well, maybe we can still use it? Oh no, not open during hours where anyone else with a family can go. Great. At least I can have all those new rope walls at MC and Pacific Pipe that I don't use since I'm a boulderer that lives in the East Bay.  

Pacific Pipe will have bouldering as they've made clear in their announcements.

Oh and as someone that doesn't fit into any of those groups and doesn't want to pay $200 to go listen to Lynn give generic advice for an hour, I could give a shit less about those classes.  

Wow.

My SO, who does fit into several of those groups also doesn't care about those things. 

Intersectionality does not demand that everyone speaks and thinks in lockstep, it actually demands that everyone speaks and thinks from their own lens.

Have you actually seen most of the meetups? Oh and those don't actually require facilities that members have to advocate for and request. I am glad they exist, but it's not something I am invested in.

Yup, I have. Inclusionary representation by definition is not going to be something that the majority of people are "invested in." The fact that they appeal to a smaller subset of the population is kind of the point.

Have you ever attended their comps? They're notoriously becoming one of the worst things you can actually do with your climbing time and Battle of the Bay was almost nothing but complaints from a lot of attendees due to crowding.

Yup, I have. Yup, they're suffering from being loved to death. Nope, not going to get angry at a company for providing something that isn't exactly what I think is perfect, especially when the alternative option is not to provide it or to make it exclusive in some way which would be even worse.

Touchstone cares most about their image and profits and less about their members. They want to image of having a good youth team and cool bro shit like a microbrewery and fancy looking crowded top rope walls to attract all the new gumbies that think they're 5.11 climbers because they 3 hung a jug haul. They haven't given a shit about climbers who actually care about the facility beyond how many routes it has or how big it is for a long time.

If they suck then they suck. Cancel your membership and enjoy the circuit at Indian Rock and Mortar where you won't have to deal with a private business making their private business choices. It's capitalism, vote with your dollar. If Touchstone doesn't go bankrupt after you and those who agree with you cancel their membership, maybe capitalism and the larger climbing population in the East Bay are saying something about your opinions. 

mpech wrote: side rant-- wish that the touchstone gyms would fix their cracks-- they are terribly designed, and all have become slippery as hell. 

Can you imagine a gym dedicated only to crack climbing? The lack of one is proof that there is no god. Oh the heart weeps. 

caughtinside wrote:

There are few things worse than gym cracks.  

yup, there is few things worse than the TOUCHSTONE gym cracks. 

the ones at PGSF, PGSV are extremely well done. 

Gumby King wrote: Learn how to Trad climb.  Crowding problems solved.

When you cant train at the training facility.  Have a Touchstone beer!  

Dont worry, the membership increases were for repairing facilities right?

WOW, this comment has as much quality as the Hanger 18 gyms...

But seriously Touchstone has been way behind on managing its quality and growth for MANY years. They've been closer to a loose collective of gyms rather than a coherent systems of gyms with the same quality (or lack there of) across all locations. 

Kevin- No one was demanding more space for the kids. People complained about crowding and Touchstone claims it was only about the kids. The youth team is <20 climbers and I can assure you that is a fraction of the post-work crowd at BIW.  Also, they're done when most of the work crowd actually gets there. So it really was a non-issue.  In other areas there is much more choice.  The response to lack of choice is gyms actually seeking out member suggestions. Touchstone instead introduces some custom branded Prana gear. I am sure that's what every climber in their gym really wants!  Tension Board or wood holds for the spray wall? No, "the head setter doesn't like wood holds" so they just order one we can barely use.

I totally get their skepticism. Their half investments in such equipment hasn't paid off so far. I was at Dogpatch the other weekend and there were likely 300 people there and 2 of us using the Spray Wall. The Kilter rarely has anyone on it (largely due to the app ecosystem being annoying, lack of benchmarks, lack of a general app community to make using the board easy unlike the Tension or Moon). The old GW woodie had a core group and that's it and I can see why it wasn't super accessible.

My other points is that no one asked for Touchstone to do the things you listed. Those are optional choices they choose to support and do not use membership dues for. What I and others are complaining about are things that they have invested membership revenue in.  From there there seems to be no standards in prioritization.  Free meetups where they pay nothing look great for them on social media and cost nothing so they support it.  It's marginally less gross than tech companies changing their logos to a rainbow logo to support Pride Week but not actually doing anything (donations, public support for or against legislation, etc) that shows investment in a cause. And we're supposed to think they're doing great things for this? They literally do nothing for those events except announce them on the microphone and put them on their site, which is essentially free.

caughtinside wrote:

There are few things worse than gym cracks.  

This is an interesting thread about what people like and don't like.  The meetups?  They don't bother me at all, good for them, I would never pay but I am not the target audience.

The comps? Haven't been to one in forever.  I sorta like when they roll through though because the routes/boulders they set tend to be top quality.  If they close my gym for two days... the others are nearby.  

I have no doubt that Karl is correct - there is a group of climbers dedicated to serious, regimented training.  Even so, I would suspect this is a tiny percentage of gym members. I also think its the kind of thing people often solve by building their own training facilities at home.  That's kind of the whole purpose of the moon board isn't it?  Not much space required?

This thread has convinced me though that the OP has merit -- if people want to train in the new berkeley training location, touchstone management might be well served to experiment with more hours for that.

EDIT: I just looked at the petition and saw it has 6 signatories.  Good luck... I think you'd be better off trying to have a conversation with a manager. 

The whole purpose of the Moon Board is a standardized board setup that has an online community to create and grade problems. They're actually very fun to use in a group setting, which is why most gyms have invested in the Moon or Tension. The Kilter isn't terrible, but there is no online community and the app is awful. Of the commercial boards it has the least use and following likely because it's something like $35k vs $3k.  When they bought the first Kilter members circulated a petition that got a few hundred signatures (I think, I could be way wrong) and sat down with management asking for basically anything else. Personally I'm happy that anything is up there and use it often and any time someone comes up and asks about it I walk them through how to use it so that more people will use a fun and challenging piece of equipment.

I would be cool with any of the petition options honestly. If they opened it from 5AM to 7AM I would go. If it was open all day I would go. If they said "You can use whatever the kids are not using" I would gladly share a board with a dozen other people. Walk into BIW any day and you will likely see a ton of people training on The Wave that would love to use the board. It's not my home gym but I would go out of my way to go there to use it just like I go out of my way to go to GW to use the Kilter during rec team off hours (they reserve it weekly).  Shit I will donate a hangboard to every single one of their Bay Area gyms so they can at least have the same boards. They have 2 or more of the same squat racks, which are totally what most climbers like to use to train, so that shouldn't be an issue to put up.

I don't know if a petition is the best solution. I have found  management super helpful at some gyms, but rude and condescending at others. Having talked to people that are long-time members they have gotten the same or worse treatment and don't feel that they would be listened to. So hats off to the OP, but it might not matter.

Karl Walters wrote:...The Kilter rarely has anyone on it (largely due to the app ecosystem being annoying, lack of benchmarks, lack of a general app community to make using the board easy unlike the Tension or Moon).

The tension board and kilter board have basically the exact same app/interface. 

FWIW, my gym has both tension and kilter and the kilter is definitely more popular. Sharing one of these boards with large groups trying to work on different problems is probably much less convenient than you think.

Good luck in your petitioning.

The interface is the same, but Tension was smart enough to have their staff and pros collaborate to pre-set hundreds of problems. Kilter has several board designs some with and without feet so the setting is all over the place.

It's not my petitioning. I have shared boards at gyms across the country and always found it fun. The Kilter does look more appealing for newer climbers and is way less sandbagged at lower grades. My wife climbs about V3/4 and has enjoyed the Tension Board as well, hated the Moon. As I said I will use whatever I have, but if the time comes to spend money on something it would be cool if the gym actually invested in what people have been asking them for.

All gyms are currently at $87/mo membership dues, except for the Fresno gym, which is $74/mo. Some people could stand to listen more, instead of being so instantly and aggressively dismissive of other's concerns.

Karl Walters wrote: Kevin- No one was demanding more space for the kids.

Remember this from a page earlier in the thread?

TaylorP wrote:

This is absurd. A private company created a separate facility because members were complaining about the teams taking up all the space (I'm one of those complainers).

- - - - - -

Karl Walters wrote: 
My other points is that no one asked for Touchstone to do the things you listed.

I know for a fact those things were asked for by many parties seeking for more inclusionary programs. Taking the idea that you and those you know didn't ask for something and assuming that therefore everyone thinks and wants like you is precisely the reason why inclusionary programs are needed. Hell, you thought no one was complaining about the kids taking up too much space when there was someone literally saying that exact thing a page earlier. 

So again, they did things for free that they actually didn't have to do anything for minus post on social media and they benefited from it by gaining an image boost. I'm talking about re-directing membership revenue to things members want.  It's not as easy as just "going elsewhere" as you could in many major cities. Also, it's the Bay Area- they can't not do that kind of publicity work.

So your opinion seems to be that the big problem is diversity and inclusion. I can see that although it's funny that you are advocating for that so strongly when you aren't a member of said groups, however, it doesn't take revenue to do.  Touchstone staff members don't have to watch over the meetups all they have to do is have the gyms open.  I don't think this is remotely relevant to what I am discussing in this thread.

Yes, I haven't heard any complaints in person. I did see one in the thread.  I have actually yet to see Touchstone say anyone complained and citing the space as a post hoc benefit. The comp team trains mostly from 4-6 and are finishing by the time the 5PM work crowd gets there. I used to go there from 5 onwards and never had an issue with them and crowding, but always with adults and crowding.