Bivy vs Tent above treeline

I'm planning a Presidential traverse this winter and planning on spending an overnight above treeline. I have the Rab micro bivy and the MH Direkt 2 tent to choose from. I'll be doing this during a good weather window and not during challenging weather conditions (though weather could obviously turn). What are the drawbacks of using a bivy above treeline? I'm guessing it would not be as warm. Also, I'm guessing the "window" I leave open to breath might be an issue during high winds (I would plan on wearing my full face balaclava). Are there other considerations? The weight saving is attractive but I'm not totally sure what the tradeoffs are. Thoughts?

Have you spent much time in a bivy in cold or inclement weather? If so, I think the tradeoffs would be pretty obvious - condensation, inability to easily add or remove layers, no room to cook or do anything else, etc.

The difference between a Rab Micro bivy and a Direkt2 in terms of weight isn't that much; about a pound if you strip the Direkt2 all the way down. The difference in quality of life is pretty huge. 

If you're planning on a two day traverse you definitely want a tent.

If the tent needs to be staked down and there's nowhere to do that, you're going to have a bad time with the tent.

The bivy idea seems bad though. Given the   rep. of the  area w/high winds and very cold temps, a bivy would seem perhaps a little suicidal. Also if you're not moving at all during the night, what's going to be your plan for hanging out in the dark?

Maybe if the wind was 0 and the temps were fair, I'd go with a bivy, provided you also bring along a tarp, but that has the same problems of staking it up.

This trip seems very specific to the area - have you been checking out past trips at this time, and see what has worked for others?

Tent, you don't want to suck fabric for hours in the wind, a lightweight wedge tent is lighter than 2 bivies and has livable space.
You can find places with a bit of cover to setup the tent such a deeper snow you can dig in and cut blocks for a wall, you'll need shovel which you should have anyways.

I've done a couple of trips with both in the winter but not above tree line with wind. Neither breathe that well and both condensation issues. The direkt 2 can't be stripped as I will need to guy it out well for potential wind gusts with supporting anchors etc. Also, I don't cook/melt snow in the tent so that's not a tradeoff for me.

Most trip reports I've read are from people who do the traverse as a 1 day trip. There was one where the guy did bivy but he had trouble finding a good even spot and didn't sleep that well as a result (or that was my take).

I guess I could always do a trial run to see how sucky a bivy would be above tree line in those conditions. I'm sure there are real reasons why it's an uncommon approach. Perhaps that's the easiest way to answer the question. 

Chris K wrote: Also, I don't cook/melt snow in the tent so that's not a tradeoff for me.

Take this with all the usual grains of salt about burning down your tent, CO poisoning, manufacturer recommendations, etc.

If the weather is nice, melt your snow outside. If conditions are foul enough you'd rather be inside, there's probably enough wind that you can melt snow in the tent as long as you vent well.

If you plan on spending a full night out, take the tent.

If you don't plan on spending a full night out, take the bivy.

With snow you can make a level platform + walls for either setup. If you take a bivy, and the wind picks up, all your gear not in your sack will try to blow away and get covered by snow.

It strikes me as an odd question.

Sleeping on that ridge is mostly contrived suffering. Some people like to suffer and that's fine. The guide companies do it to make Boston grad students feel like they're having an adventure.

You can save yourself some pack weight/suffering though and just pop below treeline to sleep at one of the RMC shelters. You've done probably half the elevation once you're past Adams. Bigger second day distance wise, but still reasonable.

If you're up there to suffer, it's up to you to decide how much. Personally I'd have to see a pretty stellar weather forecast to consider a bivy sack on the ridge, and most likely I'd only consider it for 5 min before coming to my senses.

Why do you see sleeping on the ridge as suffering? Honest question.

Cold/windy. It might be fine if you get a good weather window. Ever been up there?

Depending on when you would go, brutally col and very windy.

You want a tent as you want to be able to crawl in somewhere out of the cold and wind, change clothes, dry your feet, change socks, brew up. Doing that via a bivy sac sucks. Especially if there is any wind. Working a stove will be harsh and you will want hot water. I would not worry about staking a tent down too much. Use skis and skis poles then crawl in. If you can not stake it down just crawl in anyways and set it up. I have done that with my Bibler. Which is the beauty of tents where the poles are internal. Not sure if that is possible with the MH. 

No disrespect, but do you realize that many mountaineers have used the Presidentials as training grounds for Himalaya ascents?  While the altitude is not comparable, the weather conditions are.  I think the bivy sack is a very bad idea.  You will want to get out of the gale force winds to be able to cook and change clothing.  The bivy sack will not allow you to do this.  Even with a tent, you will want a snow shovel to dig down deep to set the tent in to avoid the winds.  Consider also an ice axe with something to pound in stakes (make sure you take true high-strength winter tent stakes).

Can't speak to the presidential traverse, but I only use my bivy if I intend to only sleep in the bivy. I once sat out a storm in mine, and it was just about the worst two hours of my high-country life. If you expect to need shelter for any portion of your waking hours, you should bring a tent.

A group of us did the Presidential Traverse a few years ago in February. Most had tents. A few brought bivies. They survived. I can't say that I would recommend it though for all the reasons everyone above mentioned.

Just go do it, dude, and learn yourself

I tried this about 20 years ago as an inexperienced,  mildly retarded, college kid. I brought a tent AND a bivy. I basically brought every piece of gear I owned. The first morning, after a windy night on the col between Madison and Adams, I watched a party of two lose their tent to the wind - likely ended up in Ohio. I lasted another day or two - I didn't die, I realized my stupidity and bailed. And I learned a lot.   jdejace has the right idea - if you can't get it done in a day, go down to one of the lean-tos and have a warm, restful, wind-free night and go back up in the morning. Sure you might lose some elevation but if the weather's that bad you can't get it done in one big push, you're likely not going to be sleeping very much and you'll be faster and better rested if you'd slept down low.

Sleeping on the ridge is contrived suffering at it's best.  Mark Twight said it best: you don't need to practice suffering.

If I were to consider trying it again: I would try to do it lightweight in one day. If things got bad - down I go.  Doesn't matter where the car is, just get down and sort it out when you're out of the storm. If you insist on doing it in 2 days, then I'd take a bivy sack and sleep down low at the perch.

Just my 2 cents....  

 

Thank you everyone for the advice. I totally agree with a bivy being a poor choice in legit winter conditions as it offers no wind protection and it creates other practical issues. Fortunately for me I have the luxury of heading up there on a moments notice and will only be going during a good weather window. If the weather changes, I'm bailing on the trip. So the assumption is the weather is good. Anyhow, I am going to go up there in a week or two to test the bivy out on an overnight hike above tree line when the conditions are right (not too warm, not too cold/windy). Maybe I don't end up using it for the traverse but I do want to gain more experience using my gear in different conditions. For better or worse, I'll post back on this thread to share what I learned.

I've done day hikes in the Presidentials during winter and several multi day winter trips. Never done a multi day trip in winter in the Presidentials though. That's the new part. For me the entire draw is sleeping above tree line. Everyone has different definitions of what's fun I guess. 

You're going to have to be really patient with the weather. Stats are not very encouraging when you are hopeful for both clear skies and minimal wind. But, bluebird days do happen. If you catch one you can camp pretty much anywhere. If you are up there in minimal conditions, you'll want to get down far enough to find some protection from the trees. On a decent snow year, there will be lots of places to pitch a tent at the forest edge. When there's enough snow above treeline, there will be patches of snow that haven't been scoured by the wind where you can anchor your tent.

Sunset view of Mt Washington from near the top of Mt Monroe. A month later, as the light faded to dark, I tried pitching this same tent on Boott Spur and a gust of wind blow it away. I found it downhill about 200' snagged on a rock. There really was no place to pitch the tent, so I found some protection from the wind up against a rock outcrop and used it as a bivy sack. Didn't sleep much that night.

Bottom line, be prepared to adjust both your agenda and where you will end up camping. When conditions are good, people do range traverses in a day all the time. But as some have said in the above comments, the whole point of the adventure is to experience a night out. That's where the magic is.

Sunset view of Mt Washing from the top of Mt Crawford on a really cold and windy night.

Staying on point, I would have to say it's a rare night where a bivy sac will be worth the effort. Single wall tents are pretty light and you don't have to spend big bucks on a Bibler. I've had a BD Firstlight for many years and it's served me well in some pretty nasty storms. Note that it's a dry climate (out west) or winter only tent here in New England

Chris K wrote: For me the entire draw is sleeping above tree line. Everyone has different definitions of what's fun I guess. 

You have a very theoretical definition at this point :-) Be safe and let us know how it goes.