ARCing my way to greatness and confusion

So I can't recover for shit on route, my aerobic power is fine for the grade and can climb continuously well somewhat below my limit, but if climbing where I need to actually start to rest I just get more and more pumped and from what I've heard the best way to deal with this is to ARC. Unfortunately there seems to be some conflicting information out there, I've heard.
You must arc for atleast 20 minutes for it to be effective
Best arc is 7 minutes on 3 minutes off
Best arc is 45 minutes
Pump shouldn't be existent
Very light pump is ideal
Moderate pump is ideal
Arc isn't effective for anyone climbing 5.13 and harder
Arc must be continuous movement to be effective (but then still no idea how long for)
Arc is best done on vert walls on big jugs
Arc is only effective done on steep walls breathing super hard(something about being at about 80% vo2 max)

As you can see it's a complete cluster fuck all of these have come from what most people would consider reputable coaches and trainers, I can't find any data on any of it though, so guys wtf is the best way to train ARC?? I don't want to hear about your system, GIVE ME DATA. 

Climbing is all bro science

bagel bagels wrote: Climbing is all bro science

I wish it were but there's lots of data on finger strength and aerobic power training, though nothings there for aero cap. 

Look at what the Rock Climbers Training Manuel has to say. They seem to have it figured out. 

It is pretty easy to collect good data on max finger strength, and even there is science is kind of weak. Endurance is a lot more nuanced, and sensitive to things like the interval length on the routes you are climbing. You can quickly sink into analysis paralysis if you try to go too deep into the data on this. It is better to keep things simpler: practice the thing you want to get better at, and you will improve.

It sounds like your issue isn;t being able to maintain a steady state, but rather being able to go above your steady state, then recover in a rest, then coninue climbing. So steady-state ARCing may not be the best choice for you. I find that resting in strenuous positions is as much a skill and mental thing as it is about the physical ability. So spending some gym time practicing recovery in a strenuous position will pay great dividends. One way to do this is to set a ~25 move circuit on an overhanging spray wall, starting and ending on a decent (but not huge) jug. Do a circuit, rest on the jug until recovered, then repeat the circuit. Do ~4 laps on the circuit, staying on the wall the whole time, resting on the jug. Then step off the wall for 10 minutes and repeat. To progress, make the resting hold or position worse.  The idea is to get better at recovering on an OK hold on a steep wall.

People can argue all day about whether is is an optimal method for physical improvement, but at the end of the day climbing is a skill sport, and resting is an essential skill that should be practiced.

Great so your training idea is basically go sport climbing, I'm not interested in what you think is better or what you do, I just want to know about ARC. You also don't seem to know that the touted benefits of arc are that it allows you to recover better at rests by increasing localised capillary density, this is exactly what I need. 

that guy named seb wrote: Great so your training idea is basically go sport climbing, I'm not interested in what you think is better or what you do, I just want to know about ARC. You also don't seem to know that the touted benefits of arc are that it allows you to recover better at rests by increasing localised capillary density, this is exactly what I need. 

Are you as unpleasant in real life as you are on the internet?

What I described IS a form of ARC. And will probably actually teach you something. Stressing about capillary density and all that is missing the plot. Learn to climb better.

JCM wrote:

Are you as unpleasant in real life as you are on the internet?

Only to people who just decide to ignore the topic and go off on their own tangents. I'm sorry but I said specifically in the post I just want to know about the training protocol known as ARC, you just gave me circuits with resting on the wall.

What I described IS a form of ARC.

Maybe what you're getting things a bit mixed up, ARC isn't just a term for training endurance it's a specific training technique so there isn't really "a form of ARC" with out timings and intensity I'd also like to see atleast something of how you think it would work better than just going out climbing. 

 And will probably actually teach you something. Stressing about capillary density and all that is missing the plot. Learn to climb better.

I'm not concerned about my own training, I'm just annoyed that everyone talks about ARC training yet no one can agree on what it actually is or how to do it, if you think what you suggested is ARC then it's just another example of how nobody seems to quite understand what the best way to train arc is, if it's effective at all. 

I only have data from a sample size of 1. Depending on what gym I've had access to, I've consistently done these ARC workouts. 1) 30 minutes on, 15 off, 30 on, traversing the base of a roped wall. 2) 30 minutes on at a lower angle, 15 rest, 15 minutes on at a higher angle, all on a system board. 3) 20 on, 15 off, 20 on, 15 off, 20 on, also on a system board increasing the angle each time. All aiming for a moderate pump and interesting moves, often doing a harder sequence then easing back to recover on easier moves (to work on recovery). The system boards are less fun and harder on my fingers.

These have all seemed similarly effective in boosting my endurance and recovery. I'm far better at sport and trad than when I started ARCing a year and a bit ago. I think I buy that you want >20 minutes in a session, but I am not sure at what point you start getting diminishing returns (40 minutes total? An hour?). I am also not sure if ARCing for 8 weeks necessarily gets you any better endurance than ARCing for 4 weeks, or if you max out your progression and your time would be better spent on power endurance.

As far as the one true form of ARC, there probably isn't one. I think it refers to a whole bunch of workouts with the idea of staying pretty pumped for most of a session to create consistent pressure in your forearms. As opposed to projecting gym routes, where you spike from 0 pump to 100% fatal pump on a redpoint burn, stay very pumped for a little while until you fall, then go back to less pump while you're on the ground.

Here's my data point: nobody I know who actually climbs hard does ARC training. It may be of some benefit for people in their first few years of climbing, but at a certain point, most folks start to consider it a waste of time. JCM actually gave you the best protocol (linked boulder circuits) to specifically address the issue you're dealing with, and you rudely rebuffed him. Good luck on your proj, brah.

You should definitely check out the rock climbers training manual, they have a whole section on the science behind arcing and the energy systems used, etc. I forgot the specific science but I think I remember the basic principles. The idea is to climb at a level so you never quite hit your anaerobic threshold and maintain as close to that level as you can for at least 20 minutes. If you are staying at that level then your forearms are getting the maximum amount of blood flow which lead  the specific adaptions (which I guess is increasing localized capillary density, but I don’t really remember off the top of my head). If you start getting pumped then you start limiting the blood flow. Doing circuits and resting on a jug is definitely not true arcing the way they define it.
Their forum has some good advice

http://rockprodigytraining.proboards.com/thread/1291/another-arc-intensity-question
Once again, I could be getting something wrong about this so I would recommend checking the book. They’ve done a ton of research but I don’t know if there’s any real data other than themselves to back it up. But it’s the best and clearest explanation I’ve found.

Edit: check out this thread mountainproject.com/forum/t…

Rctm isn’t gospel 

that guy named seb wrote: Great so your training idea is basically go sport climbing, I'm not interested in what you think is better or what you do, I just want to know about ARC. You also don't seem to know that the touted benefits of arc are that it allows you to recover better at rests by increasing localised capillary density, this is exactly what I need. 

I guess we can rule out angrily typing as an ARCing workout, otherwise you might be climbing those 5.13s

Nick Drake wrote: Rctm isn’t gospel 

Its the best info I’ve seen on arcing 

Nick, come home we miss you. 

ThAt guy named seb not sure how hard you climb but if you are sub mid 5.12 worry more about climbing a bunch at your limit then specific training.  I know people that climb mid 5.13 that can barely do 5 pull ups.

Nick C wrote:

Its the best info I’ve seen on arcing 

It was written at one point in time, practice changes. Think it was Mike who has stated later that he does almost no ARC training in his personal programs now.

ARC in general is a very narrow view on localized aerobic capacity. This might be of interest:
http://en-eva-lopez.blogspot.com/2014/12/aerobic-endurance-training-in-sport_29.html 

http://en-eva-lopez.blogspot.com/2015/03/aerobic-endurance-training-in-sport.html

I've looked into the science behind ARC, from the research I could find, to improve capillary density and size you  just do more excersise using the muscle type that's used in that activity so in in the event of resting we want to be using our slow oxidative muscles, so there  for we want to be putting mileage in them hence why traversing for hours on end in a purely aerobic state is beneficial. This is the best theory I could find, it's not specific to climbing and offers no insight into actual training. 

From my experience, you have to push yourself to the limit on the most overhanging wall you can stand. My best endurance gains came from building up max times on a 30* wall, using nothing but jugs. Think about it less of "endurance training", and more of "recovery training". If you have to spend 10 mins shaking out before getting anything back, then just sit there and hang out. Once you recover, climb around and then find a shake out jug and sit there as long as you need.

The goal is to teach yourself how to recover by shaking out. This is a step below power endurance training where you're climbing 40+ft through hard moves without a rest. Use only jugs, and push yourself beyond your comfort level. Fully warm up and then only do one set. I went from about 14 mins to over 30 mins in about 3-4 months of doing this every week to two weeks. Dont set a timer, set a stop watch to track your progress. Go until you're sweaty and breathing hard, and then you'll get a second wind up on the wall, that should be about the half way mark. I will warn though, this absolutely wrecks you. If you're a weekend climber, give yourself at least 3 days to recover for the weekend. It's the opposite of ARC training, which allows you to ARC every day.

I tried ARCing for a while and (for me) I found it to be a big waste of time. I had way more positive results from focusing on excellent technique, hangboarding once a week, and performing strength training to target the antagonist muscles. Best part is that All that takes about half the time of a normal ARCing routine.

Just my 2 cents. 

Eli Buzzell wrote: Nick, come home we miss you. 

I’ve moved to California to pursue ARC training. I hope to become the third Anderson brother.