What’s considered high end Climbing now?

Being a rifle local it seams like all of my friends send 13c pretty regularly.  Is this the new normal weekend warrior grade or am in just in a microcasmn of crushers making my inadequacy as a sport climber feel worse than it really is. 

Weekend warriors in their late 40s have climbed 9a (.14d) so this cannot be high end. Hard climbing currently starts at 9a+ (.15a).

Martin Harris wrote: Being a rifle local it seams like all of my friends send 13c pretty regularly.  Is this the new normal weekend warrior grade or am in just in a microcasmn of crushers making my inadequacy as a sport climber feel worse than it really is. 

I would say yes, you are. My local crags see low 13s infrequently and people are working 12s pretty regularly. But I'm in a low population region without a lot of available hard sport climbing. Seems somewhat chicken and egg; do the climbers go to areas where the climbs are at their level or does the level get set by what's available? Or both?

You are correct Martin. Most weekend warriors (jobs, kids, homes) who take sport climbing seriously will climb well into the 13s to low 14s. They may not onsight, but most can and do redpoint. I mean hell, 73 year-old grandmothers in Spain send 8a, and their toddler grandkids warm-up on 7c+. 

No, it's not normal - you and the Rifle gang are all VERY special.  Cherish it and shout your humble brags from the mountaintops.

There was an interesting thread about a month back comparing the max and average grades ticked at various crags by MP users. Even at sport crags most aren't getting past the low 12s, if they even climb that hard.

​https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/117787505/maxaverage-grade-of-ticks-for-crag-by-climber-example-the-gunks​​​

I think the answer depends on how you define high end climbing.  Do you consider high end climbers climbing in the top 1%, 5% or 10%?,  Perhaps the lowest grade that got a magazine write up as a significant climb?

Looking at the charts in the thread highlighted by Bryce Adamson it appears that top 5% sports climbs by ticks 

• at NRG are harder than 5.12b
• at RRG are harder that 5.11d
•  at Red Rock are harder than 5.11d

I still see people getting written up climbing 5.13.

Personally I would call you a high end climber if you can climb 5.13 for sure; maybe even 5.12ish.  Elite climbers, say the top 100 or 200 climbers in the world, probably climb 5.14d or harder on a regular basis.

Hard climbers get a lot of publicity either in the media or word of mouth just because it they are unusual.  You don't hear anything about he hoards of 5.8 climbers.

Five of my personal friends have climbed 5.14-, while several others have climbed into the mid 13s. Granted, this is on sport routes and projecting, but these are people with jobs, spouses, children and pushing middle age. None of them consider themselves particularly strong. Just for reference, Mainliner, an old school 14- in the Jemez mountains, saw at least 3 ascents this spring by local Albuquerque chuffers. 

These rifle maggots wouldn't last 5 minutes at South Woodson.

Hi Martin. Being in your same circle of Rifle associates, yes, we are in a little bit of a bubble, because places like Rifle attract the most dedicated weekend warriors as well as international pros. However, I must say that Duncan is correct, that in terms of pure numerical standards, we 5.13 climbers are weak-sauce bumblers—it's a "moderate" grade when you consider that the global standard of excellence for newsworthy sport climbs begins around 5.15a and is now breaking into 5.15+. Likewise, 5.14 is "elite" but not cutting edge, and our lowly 5.13s were cutting edge in the late '70s/80s.

I've seen the number of 5.13/.14 sport climbers explode in the last 5 years, which seems to correspond to the increased popularity of bouldering/sport and gym culture. Plus, beta for all these routes is now abundant in a new way—more people climbing these routes means that the tricks and tactics are more easily passed on, via word of mouth, YouTube and even just while waiting in line, seeing how the ten people in front of you are climbing the route. And let's not forget that many of these routes now have permadraws and perma-tick marks, so that dumbs things down as well. Walking up to a route covered in dirt and cobwebs definitely adds a level of challenge.

I feel like I still see quite a few strong climbers who would struggle to send these high grades without crowd-sourcing beta. It's easier to build strong muscles than to think creatively, invest more time in trial and error, and to observe and apply the subtle lessons that come from many frustrating failures.

Anyway, "moderate" as 5.13 may be on paper, let's not confuse the fact that any climb worthy of the grade is still pretty damn hard, or else we'd see way, way more people onsighting or sending second try. Most of the people sending these grades are investing quite a few tries over consecutive weekends and training during the week. And pros who have been crushing 5.14 for years still bother to spray about their latest 5.13 sends on social media, so that says something. 5.13 is a high-end moderate, sure, but I don't see it becoming a gimmie-grade like 5.10, which is also grouped in the moderate category and which gyms now use as a standard for certifying lead climbers.

I consider myself to be a stupid and weak climber, or otherwise I would have attained a much higher proficiency in my 25 years of climbing. (I mean really—that is a lot of time spent practicing and obsessing over something, whereas kids now commonly expect to send 5.13 within their first few years of climbing.) I've had seasons where I was as strong as ever, but mentally couldn't connect the dots, and I've had weak seasons where my mind was firing well (so I went trad/aid climbing). I've come to realize, as I grow up and pull my head out of my ass, that on a global scale, across all disciplines, even beyond climbing, I am basically the definition of average. I know almost nothing and I halfway suck at everything. But I still love climbing. If only I could grow a brain and spend my time and energy on something more beneficial to society...which I'm trying to do. Climbing helps me find a sense of balance, grace and joy, but only if I keep it in perspective. As you can tell by this paragraph, it's also been a source of self-loathing because I'm constantly confronting my limitations and failures, and it's hard not to compare myself to others who appear to be having more success.

In the end, it's true: no one cares how hard you climb unless you're at the very top of the game. Even then, people care more about how you are as a person and how they feel around you (or if they can get a belay and some good beta from you). We get caught up in so much stupid competition in this world that we often lose sight of opportunities to spread the love that is so desperately needed. In the scheme of things, most of the billions and billions of us on this planet will never be special or remembered by history. And at the rate we're going, human history might be short lived on the geologic timeframe anyway. Let's just enjoy climbing what we can, while we can, eh?

Most people climb with partners who climb within a number grade of their own climbing level, up or down, otherwise the logistics get too complicated. So if you are a 12+ climber, it makes sense that you are climbing with people in the 12- to 13 range, and that skews your perspective of "normal". If you are a 5.10 climber going to 5.10 crags with other people who climb 5.10, it would look like that is the "normal", and 5.12 is extraordinary.

if I had to put some numbers on my gut feeling, assuming you look at outdoor climbers who engage is sport climbing the distribution looks something like this:

top 0.1%: climb 5.14+/5.15
top 1% climb 5.14a or higher
top 5% climb 5.13a or higher
top 20% climb 5.12a or higher
top 50% climb 5.11a or higher

Wade R wrote: seen people who climb 13a sport get shut down on valley 5.10s

Because as we know, sport climbing isn't hard. You just need neck meats. But, not exactly a fair comparison if your 5.13 climber has never seen a crack or lost skin to an OW before. I would say I'm an all around Valley 5.11- climber, but 5.10 OW still makes me look around for my brown pants.

These are official rankings set by the Short Fall Shport Climbing Shoshiety (grades reference sport climbing redpoints)

Beginner: 5.10c and below
Intermediate: 5.10d to 5.12b
Advanced: 5.12c to 5.13c
Elite: 5.13d to 5.14d
World Class: 5.15a to 5.15c
Ondra: 5.15d and up 

If you climb more than 11a that is above average. Maybe I’m just a pleb but greater than 12a seems high end to me. I’ve been taking leading seriously like 5-6 years but .11- totally clean has never happened. I’ve dedicated a large amount of time switching from Rugby to climbing to try and phase out the rugby eventually. Maybe I need to hang out with more climbers but saying .13 isn’t high end seems like crazy talk.

So moral of the story is mid 14 is really the new hardman(women) grade.  That seams fair.

Seamus Morgan wrote: If you climb more than 11a that is above average. Maybe I’m just a pleb but greater than 12a seems high end to me. I’ve been leading like 5-6 years but .11- totally clean has never happened. I’ve dedicated a large amount of time switching from Rugby to climbing to try and phase out the rugby eventually. Maybe I need to hang out with more climbers but saying .13 isn’t high end seems like crazy talk.

I think OP meant what grade is considered elite or newsworthy. 5.13 is still hard, but these days it’s only noteworthy among friends (in general). There’s probably some unrepeated climbs, trad, or big walls that are more important than the local 5.13 sport climb though.

Going by the highest redpoint? If we go by the skill groups for 24HHH, it would break down to this,
5.0-5.9 - Beginner
5.10a-5.10d-Intermidiate
5.11a-5.12a-Advanced
5.12b+-Elite.

I think most of the dedicated climbing community knows a couple handfuls of really talented climbers. We probably surround ourselves with good climbers who can push into 13s and maybe 14s. The vast majority of people who climb will never redpoint 11a sport climbs. My local, very popular, crag has maybe two to three ascents on anything 5.12 or higher a year.

The opportunities for virtue signaling and humble bragging in this thread are incredible. Off the top off my head we've got:

1) I only climb 12+ which isn't even hard
2) Sport climbing is neither; most people who climb hard sport couldn't hang with me on awkward cracks
3) I have my own sport climbing society, and none of you are cool enough to have received an invitation
4) If you're not doing new routes you're just wanking
5) My crag could beat up your crag

I'm sure we can come up with at least five more! Let's keep it rolling.

Short Fall Sean wrote: The opportunities for virtue signaling and humble bragging in this thread are incredible. Off the top off my head we've got:

1) I only climb 12+ which isn't even hard
2) Sport climbing is neither; most people who climb hard sport couldn't hang with me on awkward cracks
3) I have my own sport climbing society, and none of you are cool enough to have received an invitation
4) If you're not doing new routes you're just wanking
5) My crag could beat up your crag

I'm sure we can come up with at least five more! Let's keep it rolling.

6. Your 13c would be 9+ in Little Cottonwood Canyon.

C Archibolt wrote:

6. Your 13c would be 9+ in Little Cottonwood Canyon.

7. Sport climbers only pinkpoint anyway, so nobody is sending anything.

John Clark wrote:

7. Sport climbers only pinkpoint anyway, so nobody is sending anything.

Goddammit, I thought we had agreed pinkpoint was a trad-only thing. Next you'll be telling me someone has climbed A5...