Repeat Sexual Assault in El Potrero Chico

Old lady H wrote:

With the intervening decades? I now would listen to his story. Full accountability for what happened, but there's still likely a "victim" on the other side of that knife too.

There is always a story, I agree.  Full accountability, then maybe the backstory.  My uncle is mentally ill, but he also has sex with kids.  There is no backstory that I would be interested in hearing that could possible justify that...they still shoot horses, don't they?

Buck Rio wrote: I get very emotional when I hear of people being abused or raped. These predators pick on the weakest people and exploit that to do their sick shit.

Sorry- not sure I'd classify people who have been raped or abused as "the weakest people"...   

As per your example, children would certainly fit that category. But the problem and the predators and the variety of situations exist far beyond the circle of any one of our personal or our loved ones' experiences. You have some valid experiences and perspectives that have been worthy to share here. People hear you. But I think you get more pushback when you try to broaden that perspective to a global definition that would encompass everyone else's experiences. A forum is a decent place to listen and share instead of necessarily SOLVE.  Empathy is not a bad thing.  It helps broaden our perspective (potentially without having to actually experience the awful events that others have). And empathy is certainly not exclusive of pursuit of solutions either.

Sorry to snip just one line out of a post that had much valuable perspective. But it's the time and the effort taken to self edit that can help prevent survivors of these events from reading that they fall into the definition of  the weakest people - (which I'll assume is NOT how you wanted them to read that line - you were more focused on the predators understandably out of anger). Empathy can promote the time taken to self edit.

Glad you are posting on this though. Glad everyone is, even if it gets messy. It's not bound to be a perfect thread or discussion.

The spray from dudes about their own situational awareness is also super random and hard to interpret as useful information.

This weird flex, plus the number of people emphasizing that "Mexico is dangerous, what do you expect," are both frustrating to read. I do not think the situation described here is in any way specific to sketchy countries. Basically, a guy establishes himself as a fun part of a fairly small community, which lends him an air of credibility with newcomers. The guys think he's funny and crazy, and so tales of his misbehavior can be easily dismissed as him being "so wild!" All the seedy misdeeds are accomplished with the assistance of too much alcohol, opening the door for plausible deniability and victim-blaming. Versions of this guy exist everywhere, not just Mexico, and I think it can be really hard for other guys--who the creep doesn't usually prey on--to acknowledge just how nasty guys like this are.

I agree that repercussions against this guy are unlikely. So, what does one do? In this specific case: stop buying ******* margaritas, stop inviting him to hang out with your group at La Posada or wherever, don't laugh at your female friends when they say he's a huge creep, and warn people. I think the existence of this thread as a warning is pretty helpful, honestly.

But more generally--
This thread has made me realize that I often laugh off creepy situations for two reasons: 1) real-life-guys (who are nice and reasonable) act like it's a joke, and internet-guys will take it a step further and tell women they're shrill/crazy/dramatic when they make a big deal of nonviolent-but-creepy behavior, and 2) it's scary to acknowledge that the guys who make bizarre explicit comments are actually dangerous.

I was super weirded out by ******* when I was in EPC a few years ago. One evening, after leering at me and my female friend for a long while, he (having not spoken to us before) started insisting we should hook up while he watched--we obviously said no and tried to ignore him, but he seemed undeterred; he kept pestering us and asking how much he'd have to pay to get us to do something sexual for him. We just stopped responding to him and left, and then avoided him the rest of the trip... I remember shrugging it off as a joke. Reading about these accusations makes me think that we (both men and women) could all do more by just speaking up when someone acts inappropriately, listening when someone complains about inappropriate comments, and by not allowing people to ingratiate themselves into a group/community when they've already proven themselves to be untrustworthy.

pfwein wrote: Fredericksburg, TX around the late 80s, that's good enough to me. Wouldn't Hank know about this story?  What's he say?

In the late 80's I was making endless night jumps in the 82nd Airborne. Pretty out of touch with Texas climbing for a bit.

Buck Rio wrote:

How the hell do you "listen empathetically" ...this is an internet forum???

I am not an empath, I see a problem (serial rapist), and try and "fix" the problem.

Here's how you do it and why...

People with more conservative temperaments (I'm not talking about politics, though there are often correlations) have a naturally higher tendency and ability to detect threats to themselves and the groups they identify with (the "situational awareness" everyone keeps talking about). Consider it one of your "superpowers". They are also more aware of (and interested in delineating) in-group/out-group boundaries. Evolutionarily, these two tendencies have developed in tandem to protect and maintain the "tribe" at large. This made perfect sense when tribes were ~150 people on average, and any threat to any one member of the tribe was literally a threat to all.

Fast-forward to 7 billion people on earth. Most conservatively-minded people still possess this hardwiring that helped protect and maintain our species for tens of thousands of years.  However, what defines "us" and "them" is no longer defined by the few dozen people you live in the rainforest with.  Back then, there was still the same range of liberal-to-conservative biology going on in people's brains: just as there were hunters and warriors, there were healers, shamans, storytellers, musicians, artists, etc.  Everyone had an imperative to get along because group-identity was preordained, and to devalue any one role in the tribe would be to devalue the tribe at large.

Now, of course, this is no longer the case. Group identity is becoming almost completely a matter of choice. As we are less and less impelled to interact and build relationships with the people around us physically (due to modern transportation, communications networks, the internet), we are more inclined to base our identities on our underlying biological temperaments, usually unconsciously. Ergo, polarization.  Ergo, libtards, cuckservatives, etc.  We are more likely to discount and devalue the pain and suffering of "others", because "others" can be squishily defined as "anyone who doesn't think the way I think".

So back to the point at hand.  All the people on this thread talking about Situational Awareness and vigilance and advocating Jiu-Jitsu training and whatnot already have a biological pre-disposition for these tendencies. Again, we'll call it a superpower. Unfortunately, their concomitant tendency for groupishness hampers these people's ability to use these gifts for people outside of their own group identity. Yes, it's second nature for you to recognize and asses threats to you as a white male (especially when it's an existential threat: IED, sketchy dude at bar, etc..).  What is -harder- to do, what is indicative of -character-, is realizing not everyone has these skills, and instead of just lazily stating "everyone should just be more like me", realize that, by listening to women, by listening to people of color, by learning what are threats to them, you will able to help and protect -more- people, and become a better, more effective version of yourself.  

Buck, the other reason you should learn to listen empathetically is that if you don't, if you continue to communicate a narrative of "personal accountability", very few women or children are going to feel comfortable coming to you when something bad does happen, as you've already tacitly implied to them that any trauma that may befall them is, in part, a personal failure. And that, obviously, means more abusers are not being stopped. You said two people close to you were abused by an uncle. Why was he not stopped after the first instance? What kind of atmosphere existed in which the first victim didn't feel they could come forward (or wasn't believed when they did)? What can -you- do to make sure the people currently in your life -never- feel that way?

Cat. wrote: Versions of this guy exist everywhere, not just Mexico

I don't agree with that, not in the US associated with a business open to the public.  Someone so open and blatant would be fired, kicked out and/or get their ass kicked, possibly all at once, just about anywhere in the US - certainly within a year.  This particular guy's liquor license would be gone in a week.  This story is 100% Mexico as I know it.

Buck Rio wrote:

There is always a story, I agree.  Full accountability, then maybe the backstory.  My uncle is mentally ill, but he also has sex with kids.  There is no backstory that I would be interested in hearing that could possible justify that...they still shoot horses, don't they?

Well, yes, and if I was capable of doing so, I'd kill, personally, in the right circumstances. 

Secrecy, shame, not talking....and not believing when we do ​talk. All of that is changing. But it's still glacial.

When is a "joke" about cutting up anyone ​funny? And at a workplace, no less? Yet, it is "accepted" because not accepting it is still a long hard process with potentially real consequences.

How many people have to ignore this, to allow it to continue? What about your uncle? Why did he not receive any help at all, way, way back when it may have been possible to help him?

I'll leave it alone now, it isn't the main gist of the thread, but this conversation happened when I'm agonizing over this friends harassment. I can't do squat, Buck. And I hate it.

So thanks for letting me rant, peeps.

Best, Helen

You guys have done more to prove why Buck is a bad person than you have to address the actual situation. Congrats. Keep up the war keyboard warriors.

This whole thread is a joke.

Jon Hillis wrote: You guys have done more to prove why Buck is a bad person than you have to address the actual situation. Congrats. Keep up the war keyboard warriors.

This whole thread is a joke.

Parts of this thread are a joke.

You imply this thread has done nothing. If at least one person who would have been assaulted is able to keep away because they were warned by this thread, than it isn't a joke and was worthwhile. I'm not sure whether that will happen, but the optimist in me thinks it might.

Bill Schick wrote:

I don't agree with that, not in the US associated with a business open to the public.  Someone so open and blatant would be fired, kicked out and/or get their ass kicked, possibly all at once, just about anywhere in the US - certainly within a year.  This particular guy's liquor license would be gone in a week.  This story is 100% Mexico as I know it.

Harvey Weinstein "got away with" predation on women for years. Why? He was in a powerful position. ****** is "protected" by his cartel associations, if not by police corruption. It takes a LOT of noise to get justice when the perpetrator is in a position of power. 

How "open and blatant" the perpetrator can be is determined by many factors, including their power and the amount of corruption that exists in the vehicles for justice.  Perps with fewer connections to power use more subtle methods, like gas lighting and choosing victims they perceive as weak.

Hank Caylor wrote:

In the late 80's I was making endless night jumps in the 82nd Airborne. Pretty out of touch with Texas climbing for a bit.

Dude: I was in the 7th at Bragg from 84-88, right down the street at the SOCOM (Ardennes Street???)end of things, right across the street from the Arby's. My old unit is at Eglin AFB in FL now. 

I still have dreams about Nijmegen and St Mere Eglise DZ (ones we used most often).

Of course there are sexual predators the world over and they all share similar MO - that was not my point.  

What makes this guy unique is he is operating a business open to the public, a bar serving alcohol no less, and has apparently been behaving this way for a long time.  He has positioned himself to gain face-face access to an endless stream of young women, many of whom have likely never before stepped foot out of the US.  

Without that bar and the climbers and whatever he does as his side job for the real money - he'd be a POS bum nobody and this thread wouldn't be here.  You're not going to see this pattern played out in the US.  If so, where?  How long did it last and how did it end?  Like I said - this is all so Mexican.

Bill Schick wrote:You're not going to see this pattern played out in the US.  If so, where?  How long did it last and how did it end?  Like I said - this is all so Mexican.

Seriously??  Epstein, Weinstein, Trump... all the way down to creepy bar and restaurant owners country-wide... A Mexican problem?? Try a men-of-low-character-in-positions-of-power problem... no national boundaries on that phenomenon...

Mark Paulson wrote: Buck, the other reason you should learn to listen empathetically is that if you don't, if you continue to communicate a narrative of "personal accountability", very few women or children are going to feel comfortable coming to you when something bad does happen, as you've already tacitly implied to them that any trauma that may befall them is, in part, a personal failure. And that, obviously, means more abusers are not being stopped. You said two people close to you were abused by an uncle. Why was he not stopped after the first instance? What kind of atmosphere existed in which the first victim didn't feel they could come forward (or wasn't believed when they did)? What can -you- do to make sure the people currently in your life -never- feel that way?

Why is people don't actually read what I say? I must come off as an idiot...

"Personal accountability" was never mentioned in any of my posts. I agree with everything that has been said the evil f*cks need to be held accountable for their misdeeds. Victims didn't deserve it, nor should be blamed  etc...

You cannot change who other people are, if they are a rapist, a poisoner, a mass shooter...you cannot do anything about them. The only thing you CAN control is what you do.  The only thing I wanted people to take away is that, given the now common knowledge that there is a sexual predator in EPC, please be careful. That is all I am saying, nothing more, no hidden victim blaming, nothing else.

Maybe there are people that would ask "Gee, what does "being careful" look like?  My post(s) was for them. Since there is little that can be done to make the environment safer, let's alter our behavior to minimize the risk to ourselves and our friends.  Sucks, but that is the world we live in.  Don't get drunk beyond your control; travel with people you trust; lock your doors.

These are some basic things most people already know.  Some people, like myself, would probably want to go to the root of the problem and maybe make it so it was safer without having to alter any behaviors.

The repeated rape of my two close relatives was never believed by the rest of my family, and this was just the tip of the iceberg. But us kids new never to be caught alone with my uncle or at the very least he would grope you, girl or boy.  He was used as a free baby sitter for my very large family....it wasn't until I and one of my cousins returned from the military we decided it couldn't stand, and we took care of things, he no longer has any teeth and he knows not to come back here.

Bill Schick wrote: Of course there are sexual predators the world over and they all share similar MO - that was not my point.  

What makes this guy unique is he is operating a business open to the public, a bar serving alcohol no less, and has apparently been behaving this way for a long time.  He has positioned himself to gain face-face access to an endless stream of young women, many of whom have likely never before stepped foot out of the US.  

Without that bar and the climbers and whatever he does as his side job for the real money - he'd be a POS bum nobody and this thread wouldn't be here.  You're not going to see this pattern played out in the US.  If so, where?  How long did it last and how did it end?  Like I said - this is all so Mexican.

In one case I know of it ended with the perpetrator on the Supreme Court... 

It's not a Mexican problem, it's a toxic masculinity problem. 

Bill Schick wrote: Of course there are sexual predators the world over and they all share similar MO - that was not my point.  

What makes this guy unique is he is operating a business open to the public, a bar serving alcohol no less, and has apparently been behaving this way for a long time.  He has positioned himself to gain face-face access to an endless stream of young women, many of whom have likely never before stepped foot out of the US.  

Without that bar and the climbers and whatever he does as his side job for the real money - he'd be a POS bum nobody and this thread wouldn't be here.  You're not going to see this pattern played out in the US.  If so, where?  How long did it last and how did it end?  Like I said - this is all so Mexican.

Cat said up thread, "This weird flex, plus the number of people emphasizing that "Mexico is dangerous, what do you expect," are both frustrating to read. I do not think the situation described here is in any way specific to sketchy countries. Basically, a guy establishes himself as a fun part of a fairly small community, which lends him an air of credibility with newcomers. The guys think he's funny and crazy, and so tales of his misbehavior can be easily dismissed as him being "so wild!" All the seedy misdeeds are accomplished with the assistance of too much alcohol, opening the door for plausible deniability and victim-blaming. Versions of this guy exist everywhere, not just Mexico, and I think it can be really hard for other guys--who the creep doesn't usually prey on--to acknowledge just how nasty guys like this are."

I think we are focusing on different aspects of this. You quoted "Versions of this guy exist everywhere, not just Mexico", and my response was referring to the entire quote above for context. Is it easier for a business owner to get away with this behavior in a country with widespread corruption such as Mexico? Yes, of course. But if you think about situations with a guy who is well liked (say, an athlete) who gets women drunk and rapes them, you hear of many stories in the US of just this thing, with some of them getting away with it. 

This thread has the potential to be extremely educational to all. We all focus on different aspects of what we read and hear, and this thread is an opportunity to read and hear how others respond when they focus on another aspect. If I disagree with what you say, I still want to read it and hear your perspective.

Magpie79 wrote:

If I disagree with what you say, I still want to read it and hear your perspective.

That attitude is way too mature for this thread.

When some disagree, they want your comments deleted; some will call you names ("victim-blamer")

Many here need a special safe place so they aren't offended.  How dare you come here with your level-headed openmindedness! :)

Why don't you just call this person out by name? That's all this is about and its pretty much already happened. Seems more straight up than all this nonsense. PSA: here's my info on this guy. Good job, do the right thing. If people want to belittle that action they probably have no practical experience with someone who's been hurt. Ignorance is bliss. What matters is what is right, not what a angry online mob looking to scrutinize everything to be right. Who cares. Life is short. Call out people like that and don't look back. It will save someone eventually.

We appreciate the PSA and the helpful input on this topic, but think it's time to lock the thread.